30-60 Stud Hand (Taj Mahal)

[Jeffage]

Ok, so the 30-60 stud game at Taj is VERY good. I consider myself a good, but not great stud player (I usually play hold em), but this game is so loose I sat. And I'm kinda starting to get into the game. Anyway, game is loose and aggressive and is playing big (prob as big as a 50-100 hold em game). Ok, I got some flack for this hand even though it may not be that interesting.

I start with: (10 /images/graemlins/club.gif10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif) 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

A 3 brings it in, a couple folds, a 6 calls (loose player). It's to me with two people to act behind me, including one expert player with a King up and one lower card. I raise. The expert makes it 60 straight. Other guy folds, bring in folds, limper folds, I call. Comments?

4th street

Me: (10 /images/graemlins/club.gif10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif) 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

My Opponent: (x, x) K /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Ok, so I pair my door. I bet the full $60. My opponent raises. So what's the story here? If he started with Aces in the hole or a pair of kings, that's a ballsy raise. Rolled up kings? Unlikely. 4th street brings him set of Queens? Possible. Raising for a freebie next round? Possible. Anyway...I call. Would anyone 3-bet?

5th Street

Me: (10 /images/graemlins/club.gif10 /images/graemlins/heart.gif) 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

My Opponent: (x, x) K /images/graemlins/club.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Ok, so I hit my money card. I check, my opponent bets and I raise. He calls with disgust. The rest of the hand is uninteresting as the boards stay pretty much the same and I bet 6th and 7th street with him calling. Comments on 3rd and 4th play? I did see my opponent's hand and I did get berated when the hand was finished.

Jeff

[Michael Emery]

On third street I like your call when he makes it $60. If hes really an expert player he'll be reraising with just about any hand he wants to play in this situation and you'll be ahead a good amount of the time. Fourth is scary as he instantly raises your paired door. As you already pointed out he could just have popped you expecting a free card with a big pair. But I will immediately tell you that if that were the case this player is not on the "expert" status level that you think he is. For obvious reasons to any soild stud player raising a paired doorcard here with a hand like pocket aces is just poor play. So if this player is an extremely strong player I'm ruling that possibility out.

Next we have rolled kings and pocket queens. He might have been fearfull of instantly raising you on third with rolled kings so I'll slightly downplay that holding. Pocket queens, now making trips is very likely. Here he has to love you pairing your door as he can expect a good amount of action from you if indeed you do hold trip fives. But since he didnt reraise on fifth street to $180 I'm throwing both rolled kings and trip queens out. Therefore the expert had kings and queens on fourth street and you got lucky. If this was a true "expert" player you should have quickly recognized that you were beat when he raised double on fourth (expect to find kings and queens here 80% of the time) and simply folded. No "expert" in my opinion wouldnt have you badly beat the vast majority of the time here.

Mike Emery

[RandomUser]

If I were in villain's position, I'd raise on 4th street even if I only had Ks.

Even though you have 2 pair already, a lone pair of kings is still pretty much a 50/50 coinflip.

And if he does have Ks and Qs already, you are a 4-1 underdog.

As someone else said, you got lucky. But you paid for the cards so enjoy your pot!

[Jeffage]

When I'm raised on 4th street, I'm getting like 5-1 to call the raise. Is it worth it if 10's and 5's are totally live and I'm pretty sure I might get 4 bets out of him on the next street if I catch? At the time, I was very worried that he hit 3 Queens because it would seem reckless to raise me on 4th there with just one big pair. But it's possible he didn't make me coming in for a raise with just a pair of 5's and instead put me on 2pairs on 4th (to which he'd be drawing live with pocket aces). I do think this is unlikely however. And btw, this guy is an excellent player generally...I say "expert", but that is my interpetation from a few hrs at the table. He certainly was the best player at the table.

Jeff

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]

If I were in villain's position, I'd raise on 4th street even if I only had Ks.

Even though you have 2 pair already, a lone pair of kings is still pretty much a 50/50 coinflip.



[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif
You need to think long and hard about why this is a terrible play random. There are several reasons why.

Mike Emery

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

If I were in villain's position, I'd raise on 4th street even if I only had Ks.

Even though you have 2 pair already, a lone pair of kings is still pretty much a 50/50 coinflip.



[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif /images/graemlins/confused.gif
You need to think long and hard about why this is a terrible play random. There are several reasons why.

Mike Emery

[/ QUOTE ]

Please explain, oh mighty one.. Also, go on AIM.

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]
When I'm raised on 4th street, I'm getting like 5-1 to call the raise. Is it worth it if 10's and 5's are totally live and I'm pretty sure I might get 4 bets out of him on the next street if I catch?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, its not Jeffage. The reason is two of those outs are going to give you open trips. Glad to see you won the hand though.

Mike Emery

[Jeffage]

Ok, so there's no chance a good player would raise 4th with a big pair in the hole against someone he assumes opens moderately tight? If there is even a 15 or 20% chance of him having something like this, it would swing to a call?

Jeff

[RandomUser]

If I am villain, I do not put Hero on trips.

I'd say 80% of time he has 2 pair. 10% of time he has trips, and 10% of time he has a 3-flush or 3-straight and is trying to buy the pot with a double bet.

By raising, I put pressure on him to define his hand.

If all he has is 2 pair, he will most likely only call and check to me on 5th street. That gives me the option to check behind if I choose to (assuming I don't improve on 5th).

If he does have the trips, he will probably reraise and I can let the hand go (though doubtful considering the size of the pot).

If he has pair and a 3-flush or 3-straight he may very well fold to the raise (once again doubtful considering the size of the pot).

Also, when you raise on 4th, Hero doesn't know if you only have Ks or if you have Ks up or 3 Qs. That puts a lot more pressure on him as well.

So I don't consider it a terrible play at all, merely an aggressive one.

[Bartholow]

If YOU do have trips with a paired doorcard and get raised, do you go ahead and reraise right away?

[Jeffage]

Thanks for the responses. I think I probably should have given this up on 3rd street against this player. Against one of the crazy gamblers, it probably would have been right to see the river. Anyway, I tabled my hand and my opponent mucked his hand face up in disgust: He had buried Queens and made trips on 4th street, but never filled up. He then proceeded to call me an absolute moron. Ok, point taken /images/graemlins/cool.gif. His $425 bucks was a slight consolation at least. More comments appreciated.

Jeff

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the responses. I think I probably should have given this up on 3rd street against this player. Against one of the crazy gamblers, it probably would have been right to see the river. Anyway, I tabled my hand and my opponent mucked his hand face up in disgust: He had buried Queens and made trips on 4th street, but never filled up. He then proceeded to call me an absolute moron. Ok, point taken . His $425 bucks was a slight consolation at least. More comments appreciated.

Jeff



[/ QUOTE ]

You should not have mucked third. Despite how this hand played out an expert stud player will be coming over the top of you here with a large number of hands you can beat. If you continually fold to a raise in this fairly high ante structured game you are asking to get abused. Expect an expert to be capable of coming over the top of you with hands like a king high three-flush, JQK, a small or medium pocket pair with that king kicker, etc. He will realize that all of these hands will likely play best heads-up against you and therefore will reraise to knock the limper with the six out. A tight predictable player, yes, you can fold third. Also, two things lead me to believe that this isnt an expert like you think he is. 1.) He didnt make it $180 on fifth. Only one way you can be full here and its a obvious raise. 2.) Him calling you an absolute moron after the hand was played out. Experts tend not to tilt so easily and realize that shiit happens. With the exception of your call on fourth I think you played the hand fine. Post in the stud section more Jeffage, hold'em is gay. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Mike Emery

[Jeffage]

Doh...typo! I meant 4th street! I definitely wasn't going to fold 3rd against him (85 year old man with an oxygen tank, yes I fold). Do you ever play this game in AC? I would play stud more frequently, but most of my play is online where hold em is king. The crazy thing is the 75-150 game looked just as loose wild but I don't quite have the guts for that yet.

Jeff

[CarlosChadha]

[ QUOTE ]
hold'em is gay. /images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Mike,

I'm sure it wasn't your intention, but why detract from your otherwise wonderful writing by adding possibly insulting comments like the above?

-Carlos

[Andy B]

I think you played it about right. What I want to know is how can you stand playing for not-insignificant stakes using creased paper cards?

[Jeffage]

I'm used to the cards (they aren't as good as they once were, but seemed to have improved recently...maybe my imagination). Can you explain why you think my call on 4th was right? What's your plan if I blank on 5th? I'd appreciate your insight.

Thanks,
Jeff

[Michael Emery]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you played it about right.

[/ QUOTE ]

But if you say this Andy you are basically saying that there is a good chance that this "expert" player is raising him double on fourth with one large pair. I would have to agree he played it right if it were against a average to poor player who might raise for reasons he thinks are correct but are really wrong. I just dont think a "expert" stud player is raising double here on fourth without having him beat the vast majority of the time. Think about the best stud players you know and how likely it is that they're making this play from behind. I know I'm not. I dont think someone like Andy is either.

Mike Emery

[BeerMoney]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hold'em is gay. /images/graemlins/smile.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Mike,

I'm sure it wasn't your intention, but why detract from your otherwise wonderful writing by adding possibly insulting comments like the above?

-Carlos

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause he's gay. Carlos, I'm fairly unhomophobic, however, I make inane comments like this all the time... Mike did mean anything by it, please don't take offense.

Mike's bi-curious, and that's why he says such things.

[Andy B]

Since you have pointed out that the "expert" could have made it two bets on third with (JQ)K, then presumably he could have done so with (TJ)K as well (straight chances are exactly the same). Could he not have have made this play with an open-ended straight draw or some such?

And perhaps a true expert wouldn't make that play with one pair, but I tend to take the word "expert" with a grain of salt. I have been accused of being an expert on here a time or two, and I make some absolutely hideous plays sometimes. I have watched the best stud players I know make plays that I think are worse than raising Jeffage with pocket Aces. I grant you that there is a lot less incentive to be an expert stud player in Minnesota than there is in Atlantic City. The guy could be off his game. I think that calling Jeffage (or anyone else in the game) a moron is a far worse play than raising with one pair on fourth.

And I don't think raising fourth street with one pair is terrible. Sub-optimal, yes, but not terrible. Jeff can hardly have trips, and it's conceivable that one pair could be winning.

Further, I really hate the guy's raise with trip Queens on fourth. He's giving Jeff a chance to to get away from his two pair cheaply. He's a huge favorite. Why not give Jeff some rope? I dispute this guy's expert status.

[CarlosChadha]

I'm not insulted at all...I just am pointing this because it is sad to see smart people make themselves look stupid with something that is so easy to avoid. And yes, we all say stupid things, that doesn't mean we should try to stop saying them, or automatically excuse ourselves when we do.