PDA

View Full Version : How should I have played this differently?


obisponator
05-02-2005, 04:59 PM
I need some advice. I flopped top pair with only an open-ended straight draw possible, bet 2/3 of the pot, the draw guy called, and hit on the turn. Smartly, I folded (he showed), but I am wondering: If the pot is small (only 170 chips), does trying to bet out the draws become harder? Check out the hand below

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t1025)
Button (t670)
Bish (t770)
BB (t1610)
UTG (t800)
UTG+1 (t640)
MP1 (t895)
MP2 (t760)
MP3 (t830)

Preflop: Bish is SB with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t30</font>, UTG+1 calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls t30, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Button calls t30, Bish calls t20, BB calls t15.

Flop: (t177.50) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Bish bets t125</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls t125, MP2 folds, Button folds.

Turn: (t427.50) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Bish bets t125</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 raises to t250</font>, Bish folds.

Final Pot: t802.50

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
No showdown. UTG+1 wins t802.50. </font>

11t
05-02-2005, 05:02 PM
I'd fold preflop.

Unarmed
05-02-2005, 05:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'd fold preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given you called check that flop everytime and call the hand down for value.

Apathy
05-02-2005, 05:25 PM
You would benefit greatly from folding before the flop as I feel that this hand will be a loser for you from this position, even considering the immediate odds.

Having chosen to play it you should be a lot more cautious with this hand, there are 6 to the flop and if you are called in any place you are going to lose the hand against a decent opponent because you have to be worried that you are already behind (to a set) and there are no safe turn cards except those that improve your hand. Check the flop and see what kind of action there is, usually check and folding the flop is the best play.

mcpherzen
05-02-2005, 05:44 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I need some advice. I flopped top pair with only an open-ended straight draw possible, bet 2/3 of the pot, the draw guy called, and hit on the turn. Smartly, I folded (he showed), but I am wondering: If the pot is small (only 170 chips), does trying to bet out the draws become harder?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's how to analyze this hand:

The pot was raised pre-flop, meaning that an 8-high flop isn't good for you (the raiser or any of the cold-callers could easily have a higher pair than 8's), and a K-high flop isn't good for you either (the raiser or any of the cold-callers could easily have a better King than you). Think ahead of time of what flops would have to come to allow you to voluntarily put money in the pot with +EV. For me, I'd need to flop 2 pair (K's and 8's) at a minimum. Trips or quads would also be just fine, as would the flush. I might check and call a small bet if I flopped a flush draw. Other than that though, you're going to want to fold to any decent action on the flop. Because what I've listed above certainly isn't a large percentage of the flops that could come, you really need to be folding this hand pre-flop.

When you do flop top-pair with a decent kicker (K), like you did, what you have is a bluff-buster hand. You certainly shouldn't be leading at that pot, but you might check-and-call, all the way to the river perhaps, if the situation was just right, in the hopes that your opponent had 2 big overcards that missed, or 6-6, or something. Probably, however, you'll be folding at some point in this hand. It is very much OK to fold top-pair when playing NLHE SNG's.

Finally, to answer your question, yes, you are going to have a hard time pricing out any draws here, unless you want to risk way more than your hand dictates you should. Save that play for the turn if the draw is still out there then. However, that is hardly the issue in this hand. In a raised pot pre-flop, your only +EV play is to fold your K8s.

--Zen

tomdemaine
05-02-2005, 05:52 PM
On a point on pedantry it's not +ev to fold preflop here it's neutral ev. I still believe it's the best move but not every optimal move is +ev it can just be the lowest -ev play available.

Unarmed
05-02-2005, 05:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
On a point on pedantry it's not +ev to fold preflop here it's neutral ev. I still believe it's the best move but not every optimal move is +ev it can just be the lowest -ev play available.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fold this even if I'm playing in the pantry.

Apathy
05-02-2005, 06:27 PM
[ QUOTE ]
On a point on pedantry it's not +ev to fold preflop here it's neutral ev. I still believe it's the best move but not every optimal move is +ev it can just be the lowest -ev play available.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty common misconception, folding before the flop is in many cases -EV (and can also be +EV). Whenever you fold a hand that was a positive EV when played, you are losing EV by folding. Having said that it is still correct many times to fold hands that have some +EV in certain situations in NL SNGs. The expected value of folding PF is 0, but that is not the same thing as saying that folding any hand PF is neutral EV.

gumpzilla
05-02-2005, 06:37 PM
[ QUOTE ]

This is a pretty common misconception, folding before the flop is in many cases -EV (and can also be +EV).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he understands this just fine. In your correction, you seem to be using EV in two different senses:

1) The EV of the entire situation
2) The EV of a particular decision.

You forego EV by folding; that is, you are making a play that is less +EV than your best +EV play sometimes. But I believe the original poster was talking about the EV of folding itself, which will be 0 - you're done with a hand and putting no more money in and getting no more out, so it can't be anything other than 0.