Fun w/87s

[Entity]

Table is generally pretty passive. Few pots raised preflop, few flops taken to 3-bets, etc. Flop bettor slows down when raised. The donk calling in between him and I will call with any pair here. The Button hasn't made himself known much but seems to be ok -- a little loose preflop but of pretty much normal aggression postflop. Not a passive donk.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (5.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button 3-bets</font>, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

River: (12.75 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks...

[billyjex]

I like it -- we're C/R the river, right? Button likes his hand enough that he'll bet the river and we can trap the donk's for 2 bets.

[DMBFan23]

I have no problem admitting that I would be clueless on this river.

if button is too loose and of average aggression, I would have to put many two pairs, sets, and TP on his list of hands, but if he is aggressive enough to three bet TPGK on the flop isn't he aggressive enough to raise with "them" preflop? EDIT: ("them" = QJs, QKo, etc, those hands that would create TPGK)

if you respect button enough that you need to see a showdown, but want max value just in case you're good, then I think this is cool. kind of like overcalls but before he bets.

c/r versus c/call is the debate on the river here, and I like the c/call. button has shown a ton of strength postflop.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no problem admitting that I would be clueless on this river.

if button is too loose and of average aggression, I would have to put many two pairs, sets, and TP on his list of hands, but if he is aggressive enough to three bet TPGK on the flop isn't he aggressive enough to raise with "them" preflop? EDIT: ("them" = QJs, QKo, etc, those hands that would create TPGK)

if you respect button enough that you need to see a showdown, but want max value just in case you're good, then I think this is cool. kind of like overcalls but before he bets.

c/r versus c/call is the debate on the river here, and I like the c/call. button has shown a ton of strength postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, I'm checkraising the river fo' sho. I don't respect Button, I just think he's more aggro than your typical loose-passive donk. He'd limp QJo, probably KQo, QTs, etc., here on the Button.

[sthief09]

I raise preflop and then you probably maybe don't have to worry about the pesky button and his stupid QJ.

the river is interesting. I don't think most people value bet the river into 3 people with just one pair. I think it gets checked through a lot, and a lot of times he does bet he has you beat. I also don't know about the turn. 13-1 and you have 5 outs. you need slightly more than 4. you could be drawing dead, the 8 could make 64 a straight or Q8 a better 2 pair, and your 7 could easily be dominated against 3 people. this is slightly weak thinking but your outs are a little tainted. I think it's slightly bad, but throw in implied odds and it's slightly good

[sthief09]

check raising is a million times better than check calling, but I might like betting more than both

[Yobz]

I'm counting 1.5 bdflush outs, 1 bdstraight out, 2 7 outs, 2 8 outs = 6.5 outs into a 7.5:1 situation, so you have to at least call the flop...
I like the raise because you can likely fold the button, get position, get a free card (if utg+1 slows down like your read says) and be happy...getting 3-bet sucks though.
Turn you have 10.75:1 getting 4 outs...which is fine if your c/r succeeds (implied odds), so I like your play overall.


Sorry for all the math, I see this situation as marginal (although I'm sure it is a lot less marginal that I make it seem)

[meep_42]

The more I look at this, the less I like a check-raise. A 'normal' player isn't 3-betting the flop with TPGK and most would raise AQ -- so the most likely hands for the button are KQ, 77, 55 unless he's a real donk.

Getting 3-bet here would really suck, as I don't think he's putting 3-bets in with a hand we beat a lot of the time.

However, i'd have gone for the check-raise in the heat of the moment.

Let's see... we pick up, say 2.33 extra bets by c/r the river when we're good. (sometimes one or both the middle men will fold, but not often) We lose 1.75 bets (the majority of the time we're no good) when we get 3-bet. So, we have to be good or he won't 3-bet a better hand a bit over half the time. At 2/4 -- i'll take those odds.

Check-raise and pay off a 3-bet.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I raise preflop and then you probably maybe don't have to worry about the pesky button and his stupid QJ.

the river is interesting. I don't think most people value bet the river into 3 people with just one pair. I think it gets checked through a lot, and a lot of times he does bet he has you beat. I also don't know about the turn. 13-1 and you have 5 outs. you need slightly more than 4. you could be drawing dead, the 8 could make 64 a straight or Q8 a better 2 pair, and your 7 could easily be dominated against 3 people. this is slightly weak thinking but your outs are a little tainted. I think it's slightly bad, but throw in implied odds and it's slightly good

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Josh,

Getting 13:1 the call seemed automatic. Even if my outs are tainted some of the time to a set/straight draws, etc. -- I'm getting a lot of overlay. Even if my outs are bad 35% of the time (~3.25 outs), it's still a call.

[DMBFan23]

I dont like my previous post. after Entity's reply, I think I underestimated the times he has one pair here.

[DMBFan23]

is that counting the times you pay off on the river to a dirty out?

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
is that counting the times you pay off on the river to a dirty out?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it depends a lot on the action, but it's negated by the fact that I figure I'm getting 6 bets on the river a lot of the time, which grants me a ton of overlay.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
the 8 could make 64 a straight

[/ QUOTE ]
You do realize that 64s hit on the turn, right?

[gman420]

I'm fairly new to poker so I'm probably making myself look stupid here, but I'm not sure I understand the postflop raise. You've been bet into, the pot is small, your hand is fairly weak, and you have active players behind you who could raise. My understanding was that when you play a suited connector, you want to flop a stronger draw than this to continue with the hand.

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm fairly new to poker so I'm probably making myself look stupid here, but I'm not sure I understand the postflop raise. You've been bet into, the pot is small, your hand is fairly weak, and you have active players behind you who could raise. My understanding was that when you play a suited connector, you want to flop a stronger draw than this to continue with the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

The pot is not fairly small. I'm getting 7.5:1 with around 6 outs, which is enough to continue; at this point, since I'm not folding, the question is whether I should raise or call. Since I feel raising will let me draw more cheaply, by getting me to the river for 1BB the majority of the time, I raised.

This time, it backfired, but against passive opposition who will very rarely 3-bet you, raising is preferrable to calling on flops like these.

Rob

[DeathDonkey]

I agree with this. If it was heads up checkraising would be better. Here if he checks through you may miss bets from the overcallers which would really suck.

-DeathDonkey

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with this. If it was heads up checkraising would be better. Here if he checks through you may miss bets from the overcallers which would really suck.

-DeathDonkey

[/ QUOTE ]

So you don't think he's betting the river &gt; 50% of the time?

[tizim]

[ QUOTE ]
So you don't think he's betting the river &gt; 50% of the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Button is easily betting the river &gt; 50% of the time. Any hand/any player that 3-bets this flop is very very likely to be betting the river since the turn and river look so safe. I think the real question is whether or not you're actually ahead of him, but with all the overlay you're getting, I go for the CR 100% of the time.

[Entity]

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[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/heart.gif /images/graemlins/club.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

-d

[Entity]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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[/ QUOTE ]

Huh?

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

I was bumping it to see if anyone else had any thoughts. I guess not.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
the river is interesting. I don't think most people value bet the river into 3 people with just one pair. I think it gets checked through a lot, and a lot of times he does bet he has you beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is very likely.

[zeropotential]

can we talk about the flop and turn action here for a moment...
i find some difficulty with 2nd pair.

7.5 sb to you on the flop ragged board.
you have:
2 outs: 2 7's (full outs)
2.5 outs: 3 8's (nearly full outs)
1.5 outs: bdfd
total, 6ish outs. (need 6.7-1)

pot odds support the call/raise.
raise to: buy the button, see a free river after UI turn, anything else?
i find myself sometimes folding here (esp. if the board is more connected/cordinated) .. and then sometimes calling (i would probly only call in this situation) lack of agression? throwing away +EV hands?


turn: 11.75bb
1.75 outs: 2 7's (full outs -a bit for /images/graemlins/diamond.gif)
2.25 outs: 3 8's (nearly full outs)

i only see about 4 outs here... 10.5-1, yes. easy call