Slowplay set of queens? [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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veganmav

05-02-2005, 12:22 PM

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 3 folds, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets, SB raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Hero 3-bets, SB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 3/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG calls.

River: (12 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB calls, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has Qc 9d (one pair, queens).
Hero has Qd Qs (three of a kind, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 14 BB. 

I 3betted the flop, but I considered just calling it, and then raising the turn. I don't know which is better, 3betting the flop, or just calling and raising the turn, but I figured that either the SB or UTG was on oa straight draw, so I wanted to charge them as much as possible to see the turn. So I went with 3-betting the flop. But maybe I shoulda just raised the turn.. hmmmm. any ideas? /images/graemlins/confused.gif

ghostwriter

05-02-2005, 12:25 PM

I think you played it fine. People tend to give less respect to flop raises. Waiting to raise the turn probably kills your action.

Bigdaddydvo

05-02-2005, 12:47 PM

Stand-uhd

xCEO

05-03-2005, 03:24 AM

I have thought about this hand for a while. This is what I came up with:

You said that the following:
[ QUOTE ]
but I figured that either the SB or UTG was on oa straight draw, so I wanted to charge them as much as possible to see the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I think about this, it doesn't seem right. What is the point? There is no way you can protect your hand by 3-betting this flop, because UTG & SB only have to add one small bet. If you had called the flopraise, SB would have likely bet again on the turn so you could raise then.
In that case you get more value.

In case of a bad turn-card, you save one smalll bet on the flop by not 3-betting.

Yobz

05-03-2005, 03:26 AM

There is no other way to play this

KDawgCometh

05-03-2005, 03:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
There is no other way to play this

[/ QUOTE ]

gusser

05-03-2005, 03:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I have thought about this hand for a while. This is what I came up with:

You said that the following:
[ QUOTE ]
but I figured that either the SB or UTG was on oa straight draw, so I wanted to charge them as much as possible to see the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I think about this, it doesn't seem right. What is the point? There is no way you can protect your hand by 3-betting this flop, because UTG & SB only have to add one small bet. If you had called the flopraise, SB would have likely bet again on the turn so you could raise then.
In that case you get more value.

In case of a bad turn-card, you save one smalll bet on the flop by not 3-betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

The three bet is for value, he flopped a monster, his pot equity is enourmous. Whenver i'm a huge favorite i like to get a lot of money in the pot. Even if either of them make their straight on the turn, Hero has a huge redraw to the nut boat+. Don't be scared of monsters in the closet.

gus

jason_t

05-03-2005, 03:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is no other way to play this

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I'd consider check/folding the river as someone may have made a straight with AK or 89.

xCEO

05-03-2005, 03:57 AM

I think you don't understand me. Put another way:

You want to get as much value as possible with this monster. You achieve this by waiting for the turn to be aggressive. By 3-betting the flop you get no action on the turn (=less value) and you don't protect your hand.

*edit: Can some expert explain what might be wrong with my play here?

Victor

05-03-2005, 03:58 AM

this is fine.

also, smooth calling the flop and raising the turn is good.

KDawgCometh

05-03-2005, 04:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is no other way to play this

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I'd consider check/folding the river as someone may have made a straight with AK or 89.

[/ QUOTE ]

but with the pot size, it may be correct to check call this river

jason_t

05-03-2005, 04:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There is no other way to play this

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I'd consider check/folding the river as someone may have made a straight with AK or 89.

[/ QUOTE ]

but with the pot size, it may be correct to check call this river

[/ QUOTE ]

No way, you're good here almost never. Easiest check/fold ever. Learn to read hands and your winrate will soar like an eagle.

Matt Jenko

05-03-2005, 04:58 AM

maybe a little re-reading of the OP is in order. check folding is not an option here.

bawcerelli

05-03-2005, 05:02 AM

No way, you're good here almost never. Easiest check/fold ever. Learn to read hands and your winrate will soar like an eagle.

You've got a lot of posts, so I'm assuming you know what you're talking about. But why would anyone go for a gutshot idiot end of a straight with 89? Especially considering the PF raiser may have hit a set on the flop and can redraw to a full house to beat the gutshot straight. I don't get it.

bawcerelli

05-03-2005, 05:06 AM

I changed my mind, I guess it's not such a bad play to stick around with 89 from the small blind after all. I just had to think about it a bit more carefully.

jason_t

05-03-2005, 05:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
No way, you're good here almost never. Easiest check/fold ever. Learn to read hands and your winrate will soar like an eagle.

You've got a lot of posts, so I'm assuming you know what you're talking about. But why would anyone go for a gutshot idiot end of a straight with 89? Especially considering the PF raiser may have hit a set on the flop and can redraw to a full house to beat the gutshot straight. I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes people get drunk and have fun at other people's expense. This is not one of those times. I'm serious. Check/fold is clear here. Good luck.

jordanx

05-03-2005, 05:16 AM

You might eek out an extra big bet by smooth calling and raising the turn, even that is suspect, you played it fine, don't beat yourself up over this hand.

Matt Jenko

05-03-2005, 05:40 AM

check or fold. i see and agree /images/graemlins/smile.gif. only way anyone bets into you here is a winner.

istewart

05-03-2005, 07:09 AM

Bringing back your history with Alizee jason?

tbigz

05-03-2005, 07:27 AM

I like your bet on the river. I think it has a little value. But, if you do get raised, then a fold is in order.

Bobbrt1329

05-03-2005, 11:51 AM

Am I missing something, or are the "check/fold the river" people just spewing some B.S.?
If you check this river (which I wouldn't), you're getting 13 or 14 to one, holding top set, and you're supposed to be worried about someone who either just hit a gutshot or the idiot end of an open ended straight draw? Why is this not an easy call? There are tons of hands that people are going to bet at you with, once you show weakness with your check. The small blind, for example, could easily be holding a strong queen (or even queen-ten), and would very likely bet the river after your check.
I think folding here to one bet would be TERRIBLE.

Redd

05-03-2005, 01:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
No way, you're good here almost never. Easiest check/fold ever. Learn to read hands and your winrate will soar like an eagle.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jason,
Would you be able to explain to those of us who aren't very good at reading hands why we can be sure we're behind a straight here? I don't play anywhere near 3/6, but when I look at it there seems to be many possible river hands that we beat.

Entity

05-03-2005, 01:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No way, you're good here almost never. Easiest check/fold ever. Learn to read hands and your winrate will soar like an eagle.

You've got a lot of posts, so I'm assuming you know what you're talking about. But why would anyone go for a gutshot idiot end of a straight with 89? Especially considering the PF raiser may have hit a set on the flop and can redraw to a full house to beat the gutshot straight. I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes people get drunk and have fun at other people's expense. This is not one of those times. I'm serious. Check/fold is clear here. Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reading the hand, it seems to me that openfolding is far better than check/folding here. Thoughts?

Rob

Redd

05-03-2005, 01:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No way, you're good here almost never. Easiest check/fold ever. Learn to read hands and your winrate will soar like an eagle.

You've got a lot of posts, so I'm assuming you know what you're talking about. But why would anyone go for a gutshot idiot end of a straight with 89? Especially considering the PF raiser may have hit a set on the flop and can redraw to a full house to beat the gutshot straight. I don't get it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes people get drunk and have fun at other people's expense. This is not one of those times. I'm serious. Check/fold is clear here. Good luck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Reading the hand, it seems to me that openfolding is far better than check/folding here. Thoughts?

Rob

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts are that you guys are doing serious damage to my sarcasm detector. Was Jason serious or not?

Harv72b

05-03-2005, 01:54 PM

suited77

05-03-2005, 02:02 PM

unless u think UTG or UTG+1 are weak players.. in which case they would call in those positions with, say K10, or not raise with, say AK, then i think u call the SB's check/raise on the flop, to valuebet + reraise on the turn.. ur losing 2 bigbets on the turn by 3betting the flop. i dont know much about pot equity.. but does this make sense/