Accused of chasing! Was my play bad? - Fixed HH

[theblitz]

I pissed of this guy. He called me a chaser and told me how badly I had played etc.
I figure I played it just right.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Button ($17.65)
Hero ($42.15)
BB ($98.15)
UTG ($96.98)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif. Hero posts a blind of $0.25.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $1</font>, Hero (poster) calls $0.75, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>.

Flop: ($2.50) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">Button bets $0.5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, Button calls $1.50.

Turn: ($6.50) Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

River: ($6.50) T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero bets [$3].
Button raises [$6].
Hero raises [$17].
Button is all-In [$8.65]

Final Pot: $39.40

Results:
Hero has Ac Jc (straight, ace high).
Button has Ts Kc (two pair, kings and tens).
Outcome: Hero wins $5.35 from side pot #1 with a straight, ten to ace.
Hero wins $34.05 from the main pot with a straight, ten to ace.

Only a small number of hands so no real read but doesn't seem to be the world's best player.

I raised the flop as a bluff. Also, his pathetic bet didn't exactly imply confidence in his hand. If he had re-raised I probably would have folded.

On the turn I would have folded to any reasonable bet.
He claimed he checked behind because he was ahead but I think my flop raise scared him.

[swolfe]

was there no river action?

[etgryphon]

Looks fine to me. He has no one to blame but himself. You ended up getting lucky. No Doubt. Chasing is mostly CALLING bets. Being Agressive so you get to draw two cards for a reduced price is +EV.

-Gryph

[etgryphon]

[ QUOTE ]
was there no river action?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah...I would think our man would have been stacking the Buttons chips.

-Gryph

[theblitz]

Convertor screwed up and I forgot to check /images/graemlins/blush.gif
Corrected the post.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

You played it fine.... too bad button didn't have more chips.

[Edit: And clearly your raise scared him into checking the turn... he is the kind of player I love to have at the table... they don't really follow the action but think they know everything]

[Zag]

Hahahaha! You never chased. You bluffed and this stupid limit player (notice that every bet he made was minimum) did his best to give you all his chips.

Of course, the right answer would have been to tell him that you "KNEW" you were going to hit the straight. When he points out that it was runner-runner, just fail to comprehend what he is saying, and continue with you point that you had the nuts, and why SHOULDN'T you have raised the flop when you were going to get the nuts. Keep it up until steam comes out his ears.

[sourbeaver]

I love it, the whole way, except the cold call from SB.

[davedave]

Um. IT was a 50/50 play in terms of who played badly. First off, you definitely semi-bluffed INCORRECTLY AGAINST POSITIVE EXPECTATIONS. You were semi-bluffing the flop with the hopes of getting a runner-runner (hopefully...if you were cold-stone bluffing, then you need to re-evaluate your long-term goals). But even then, do you know the odds of hitting runner-runner???!?? Less than 4%. You re-raising the flop was dumb b/c it should be obvious he made a hand, and you could improve, but again, at less than 4%. And if you call in the hopes of hitting top pair (the A), then you really do suck.

However, you were slightly offset by the fact that the other guy should've bet again on the turn. Possibly, a pot-sized bet. Would you have called then? If so, you're dumber, because you're looking for one card to finish your straight, which gives you only 10 to 1 chance of hitting it (about 8.4%). Again you get 3 more outs if you think a pair of Aces takes it.

I'd say you got lucky. THe other guy should DEFINITELY have either bet the turn again, or just given up after your flop re-raise putting you on a set or two-pair.

You got lucky to hit your runner-runner, and to not be challenged after the turn, and i don't think your moves are in favor of positive long-term expectation. sorry dude, but it's true. You seriously got lucky. But that's poker.

[swolfe]

i'd check-raise bluff against someone who's likely to be on a pure steal preflop. it sends a message not to screw with your blinds unless you want to face some heat. OP should have raised more though.

OP wasn't semi-bluffing, he was making a pure bluff. i think you're missing that point.

[davedave]

Um. If anything, the "hero" was trying to steal. Pre-flop i have no arguments against. A J suited is decent. His post-flop play was horrible though. Come on. Unless he read his oponent b4 and knows a cold-stone bluff will work. It didn't work though.

BUT THE ONLY REASON he didn't lose b/c his opponent didn't bet big on the turn.

When a re-raise comes on the flop, that signals either a VERY GOOD SEMI-BLUFF or a MADE HAND. Runner-runner is not a good semi-bluff.

THink about it. He re-raised $1. Overall, he'll lose 96 bets and win 4 (with the 4% odds of hitting the runner-runner).

NOT SMART.

[DaveduFresne]

I'm sorry but raising virtually drawing dead unless you're playing headsup is not a good line.

And if he reraised you probably woulda folded???? If a guy raised me one cent with those two cards with that flop my hand would be in the muck in a second.

David

[swolfe]

you're trying to say that for check-raise to be +EV here that it has to be a made hand or a strong draw semi-bluff? i disagree.

there are not many times that i'd personally make a pure bluff, but one of the situations is when some guy has been raising my blind every time it's been folded to him. after two times, i check raise the flop with whatever i have. it may not be +EV on that particular hand (although it only needs to work more than ~50% to be +EV), but it certainly serves some metagame purposes. the guy will be much less likely to try to steal my blind next time.

[theweatherman]

Dave, you seem very deadset against the hero but your reasoning seems unfounded. The raise on the flop was a bluff in the face of a very weak raise from the villain. This was obviously made in order to steal the pot right there. Thats the idea of bluffing.

Since he was called the hero rightfully went into a check/ (I assume)fold mode on the turn but his bluff on the flop was enough to buy a free card. One the river he spikes the nuts and bets it for value. While you can decide yourself if you would bluff this weak raise the hand was played fine.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]

THink about it. He re-raised $1. Overall, he'll lose 96 bets and win 4 (with the 4% odds of hitting the runner-runner).


NOT SMART.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero wins if an A hits the river. Hero wins if villain folds to a raise of his obvious steal flop bet. (BTW, I know it wasn't a "steal." He did have a K. But anytime an opponent raises PF from button and then minbets the flop, I will raise with lots of hands. Hero played this fine.

[davedave]

Well let me ask the hero. On the turn, if he bet big, completely obliterating your pot odds, say pot size or more, what would you do then? That is the pivotal decision.

I still say that was a horrible re-raise unless he got a read on the other guy. If he did, the read obviously wasn't correct, b/c the guy called.

And only fools think that a small raise = weakness 100% of the time. There's such a thing as "extraction".... making a callable bet do extract more money when you have the nuts. The opponent had top pair and had the "hhheerrrooo" &lt;--sarcasm BEAT until the river. Top pair is NOT weakness, esp. against the hero's.....NOTHING. (until of course the river).

Dude, not smart play. Not smart.

[kyro]

[ QUOTE ]
Well let me ask the hero. On the turn, if he bet big, completely obliterating your pot odds, say pot size or more, what would you do then? That is the pivotal decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure hero would fold.

[ QUOTE ]

And only fools think that a small raise = weakness 100% of the time. There's such a thing as "extraction".... making a callable bet do extract more money when you have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]
Villain did a nice job of "extraction" on the turn. Give me a break.

[ QUOTE ]

Dude, not smart play. Not smart.

[/ QUOTE ]

You haven't made an intelligent comment yet in 4 posts. Not a good start.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
You haven't made an intelligent comment yet in 4 posts. Not a good start.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was wondering if it was too early to add him to my ignore list.

[davedave]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well let me ask the hero. On the turn, if he bet big, completely obliterating your pot odds, say pot size or more, what would you do then? That is the pivotal decision.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm pretty sure hero would fold.

[ QUOTE ]

And only fools think that a small raise = weakness 100% of the time. There's such a thing as "extraction".... making a callable bet do extract more money when you have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]
Villain did a nice job of "extraction" on the turn. Give me a break.

[ QUOTE ]

Dude, not smart play. Not smart.

[/ QUOTE ]

You haven't made an intelligent comment yet in 4 posts. Not a good start.

[/ QUOTE ]

THE VILLAIN is just as bad! My point is "hero" got lucky b/c the villain also played bad and played it soft. If it was me, i'd raise all the way to the river. With that board, the chance of him catching the runner-runner, like i said is 4%!!!

So i might've lost if he kept on calling then (calling station), but 96 times out of 100 in that situation, i'd DEMOLISH him.

I don't think you should PRAISE the "hero" . He simply got lucky. And "hero", i hope you're learning something. You played it marginally. Not solid play my friend.

[theweatherman]

Obviously small bets do not equal weakness 100% of the time. And this could very well have been a "call me bet" so to speak. Even so the hero's check raise continues his bet preflop and suggests a very good hand. I know everyone would agree to fold to a raise by the villian on the turn, which is why the hero checked his hand. Lucky for the hero the villan was scared of him and gave a free card, allowing for the runner runner nuts to come to be.

Not ever bluffing is -EV. The hero saw he had credit for the pf raise and then saw the weak bet on the flop, the bluff is not so bad.

[davedave]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You haven't made an intelligent comment yet in 4 posts. Not a good start.

[/ QUOTE ]

i was wondering if it was too early to add him to my ignore list.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you kidding me?!?!?

Did you read what i wrote??? it makes sense!

seriously!

positive expectation in the long run.

Ok. Here's the reasons why I would deem the hand acceptable.

If
a&gt; hero KNEW the tendencies of opponent, which he didn't really state with conviction.

b&gt; if hero really would fold if opponent bet the turn.

However, the fact that "hero" is bemoaning the fact that he was called a chaser leads me to believe that he thinks that the play was flawless!

It was not flawless (see my previous posts re: percentage plays).

I can't believe you don't play odds, or see my logic.

There's no way the responders to this post can have long-term profit. I'd bet money on it.

[davedave]

alright then. well put. In that case, then, the villain must be bankrupt by now if he played it like that.

nice play yada yada.

[theweatherman]

Your logic is flawed b/c you are not seeing that he was bluffing the flop. the hero obviously slowed down on the turn and then bet the river when he hit. Yes the hero was lucky, but he was only allowed to be so b/c of the villians lack of aggression. Bluffing is an integral part of the game, learning to bluff in the right situations and in the right way will greatly increase your profits.

[redfish]

He made a check raise bluff hoping to get him to fold. To say that it's only +EV when he catches runner runner, that is just silly. What about the many times that the button was just trying to steal and he folds right there on flop?
Okay so he picked a wrong time to bluff since the guy actually had a hand but bluffs don't have to work every time in order to have +EV, they only have to work some of the time.

I'm not the type of player who would have made this bluff but to say it was a bad play is just wrong. It's too easy to tell someone they made a bad bluff when it doesn't work /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

[fathertime]

Sour,

Are you advising a fold preflop or reraise? I took the preflop call as a blind defense against a possible blind steal.

[sourbeaver]

I gotta read these HH better. I thought this was 10-max.

Forget what I said about the pf call, I like it all the way.

[sourbeaver]

[ QUOTE ]

There's no way the responders to this post can have long-term profit. I'd bet money on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Made my day.

[fathertime]

Davedave,

You have made your argument and given your reasons.

A lot of good--I mean winning--posters have stated why they like the play and given their reasons. Now you may want to try see why their side of the argument is valid.

I think an argument can be made for hero continuing to bluff on the turn and making a near pot-sized bet. Why? It is very difficult to play against someone who does the following:

a. bets made hands strongly
b. semi-bluffs strongly
c. bluffs strongly

Villain has given no indication that he likes his hand. It is a perfect opportunity for Hero to win the pot by betting.

[fathertime]

Whew, I thought I missed something. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theblitz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

THink about it. He re-raised $1. Overall, he'll lose 96 bets and win 4 (with the 4% odds of hitting the runner-runner).


NOT SMART.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero wins if an A hits the river. Hero wins if villain folds to a raise of his obvious steal flop bet. (BTW, I know it wasn't a "steal." He did have a K. But anytime an opponent raises PF from button and then minbets the flop, I will raise with lots of hands. Hero played this fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts exactly.
Since there was no way I was gonna fold to his mini-bet I had to consider where we stand.
With such a small bet I figured (wrongly) he was on a low pair. Also, even if he did have the K then my check-raise would worry him. That's what got me the free card. Had he re-raised the flop I would have folded it easily

As for the turn, as I said earlier, any decent bet would have pushed me out.

[theblitz]

[ QUOTE ]
The raise on the flop was a bluff in the face of a very weak raise from the villain. This was obviously made in order to steal the pot right there. Thats the idea of bluffing.

Since he was called the hero rightfully went into a check/ (I assume)fold mode on the turn but his bluff on the flop was enough to buy a free card. One the river he spikes the nuts and bets it for value. While you can decide yourself if you would bluff this weak raise the hand was played fine.

[/ QUOTE ]
Couldn't have said it better myself.

[theblitz]

[ QUOTE ]
Well let me ask the hero. On the turn, if he bet big, completely obliterating your pot odds, say pot size or more, what would you do then? That is the pivotal decision.

[/ QUOTE ]
Unequivocal yes.
There is no way I would have called a real bet on the turn.
On the other hand, had he bet 25 cents again, well ....

[theblitz]

[ QUOTE ]

I think an argument can be made for hero continuing to bluff on the turn and making a near pot-sized bet.

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting line that didn't occur to me.

[Zag]

Wow, for someone still in his single digits on number of posts, you jump in with an ALL CAPS title (which includes, by the way, a grammatical mistake), worlds of arrogance, and some pretty feeble advice.

[ QUOTE ]
You re-raising the flop was dumb b/c it should be obvious he made a hand,
...
You got lucky to hit your runner-runner, and to not be challenged after the turn, and i don't think your moves are in favor of positive long-term expectation. sorry dude, but it's true. You seriously got lucky. But that's poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you think a minimum raise preflop followed by a minimum bet when checked to on the flop makes it "obvious he made a hand" then you are frighteningly weak-tight. While a check-raise is not a play to make every time, or even half the time, in this situation, never making it is nearly as bad. He would often be making it for value against A8 or the like, which could easily have played the way villian has so far; he might make AQ lay it down. As the hands stood, he only had to spike an ace, he did not need the runner runner that he happened to catch. His bet was -EV against the actual hand, but +EV against the range of hands that villain might have had.

So, some advice for you: I don't know if you are 15 years old or not, but either way, try not to sound like it. State your opinion and your reasons why, but skip the "NOT SMART" and the "Sorry, dude, but it's true" crap. It is condescending and annoying when you are right, and moronic when you are wrong. Either way, it doesn't help the discussion.

[davedave]

[censored] You

[davedave]

arrogance? i am arrogant, because i'm awinning player!
and of course i'm not idiotic to play the same style. I think you['re picking on me b/c i'm "new" to this forum.

in any case, u don't know me. i'm the one making you go broke. see you at the table, fools. oh btw u can't respond b/c i'll be kicked out soon. i just cursed at all you fags.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
There's no way the responders to this post can have long-term profit. I'd bet money on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Save your money -- I would rather win it at the tables.

[TakeMeToTheRiver]

[ QUOTE ]

THE VILLAIN is just as bad! My point is "hero" got lucky b/c the villain also played bad and played it soft. If it was me, i'd raise all the way to the river. With that board, the chance of him catching the runner-runner, like i said is 4%!!!

So i might've lost if he kept on calling then (calling station), but 96 times out of 100 in that situation, i'd DEMOLISH him.

I don't think you should PRAISE the "hero" . He simply got lucky. And "hero", i hope you're learning something. You played it marginally. Not solid play my friend.

[/ QUOTE ]

Relax and go back and read the initial post. OP thought villain was on a steal -- that is why he checked-raise. He said that he would have folded to a reraise or to any reasonable bet on the turn. Hero was not looking to take this hand to the river -- He was looking to win it on the flop. Villain gave him the chance to draw out and that's what happens when you play trouble hands like KTo.

Do you really push top pair with a mediocre kicker all the way to the river against a flop check-raise regardless of what your opponent does? In your own words: "There's no way [you] can have long-term profit."

[skiier04]

[ QUOTE ]
arrogance? i am arrogant, because i'm awinning player!
and of course i'm not idiotic to play the same style. I think you['re picking on me b/c i'm "new" to this forum.

in any case, u don't know me. i'm the one making you go broke. see you at the table, fools. oh btw u can't respond b/c i'll be kicked out soon. i just cursed at all you fags.

[/ QUOTE ]


Ill play you tonight on Stars heads up. Anytime is good for me. Tell me your sn and time and I'll be there. Good luck.