Was I out of line

[fingokra]

Recently, I was playing 3/6 at Silver Star in Phila, MS.
and this happened

I am small blind with q10s. One early limper, button limps, I complete, bb checks.

Flop comes rainbow with k,10,4. I pause (very briefly in my opinion) to consider if I am going to take a stab at this with middle pair.

Well, the button, who has no clue what he is doing thinks the action starts with him and checks. On seeing someone check on this end of the table the early limper immediately checks. This has happened in less than two seconds and I have made no action. I say hold on I haven't acted yet and I bet.

The dealer refuses to let me bet because two players have acted behind me. He says this is a house rule. (is this common) It seems like a stupid rule to me because what is stopping me and a buddy from sitting together a immediately check/checking every flop. Anyway, I tell the dealer I think it is a stupid rule (maybe I shouldn't have). He tells me that if I don't like it I can play elsewhere. Thought this was uncalled far.

So is this rule unusual, was I out of line? This is probably the best dealer in the house, but he knows he is getting tipped by the hand. He trys to go as fast as possible. I believe he contributed to the problem by trying to rush the game to get more tips.

Beat them for 380 in seven hours of 3/6 so they can all kma either way.

[Klepton]

this is obviously a very bad rule and it probably doesn't even exist, next time call the floor

what stops me from just checking on the button with a small pair when all overcards flop and then saying that no one can bet?

and with 3 people in the pot, you should have bet this anyway

[CrashPat]

Somebody can't act behind you because it isn't their turn yet. Call the floor next time because the dealer is wrong.

[fingokra]

thanks for the reply

the dealer said if TWO act behind you, you can't act

that was my point about me and a buddy sitting next to each other and just checking immediately whenever it helped one of us

four players counting, myself
I wanted to bet, that was the point. Did you mean I shouldn't have bet anyway?

ended up being a succesfull semibluff, because of how much I protested that I wanted to bet

then again as loose as this game was I doubt anyone folded a hand that would beat me at that point

[juanez]

The dealer refuses to let me bet because two players have acted behind me . He says this is a house rule.

I believe in mosts room 3 actions behind you is considered "significant action". If significant action takes place behind you when it's your turn to act without you protesting, it's tough luck for you - you no longer have the right to bet.

Perhaps the room you were at had a house rule where sig. action is 2 actions instead of 3.

In the scenario you outlined it seems that the 2 actions happened very quickly, but it happened nonetheless.

It seems like a stupid rule to me because what is stopping me and a buddy from sitting together a immediately check/checking every flop.

The dealer should put a stop to this behaviour.

[Trainwreck]

Sounds like BS to me too, this is the dealer's fault, he should be on top of things and controlling the flow of the game and should have told those 2 folks it was not their turn yet.

If he is the best dealer in the house, I'd hate to play there.

>TW<

[brokedickrooster]

As well as protecting your cards, it is the players obligation to protect his action.

I understand that this happened very quickly and there probably wasn't anything you could do about it, but if significant action in this place is designated at two, than there is not much that can be done about it.

How many friends did you make when you told the dealer it was a stupid rule? Was it worth it? As far as thinking they can KYA, you should be kissing theirs if you beat the game that badly so that everybody stays happy, and you can continue playing there. Don't let your ego get in the way of a profitable situation.

[zuluking]

[ QUOTE ]
He tells me that if I don't like it I can play elsewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would never, ever, tip that dealer again.

[RacersEdge]

Where I play, getting 2 or 3 - or sometimes more past the action is somewhat common. People just aren't aware of who is even in the hand - and then one out of turn action can trigger more out of turn action. In these cases, the dealer always somewhat scolds the players who acted out of turn. Hard to believe another casino can react completely opposite.

The funny part is when someone acts out of turn when it's on you and they apologize to you . "Ummm...no apology necessary...you raise? OK I fold."

[Photoc]

First off, it's the players responsibility to protect his/her action. In most rooms it's 2 or 3 actions after you constitutes "significant action" and you have forfeited your action.

The quote below is absolutely absurd.
[ QUOTE ]
He trys to go as fast as possible. I believe he contributed to the problem by trying to rush the game to get more tips.


[/ QUOTE ]
Just say "time" and you have protected your action. It's the players decision to act quicker. Just because the dealer is running a quicker game does not mean you have to now play faster. Now if the dealer had skipped you and told the new guy that it was his turn, then that could be a different story.

I find it funny when people complain they only get 30 hand/hour in a casino but they can get 60+ online. Then a dealer runs the game fast and they are now upset that they
"feel rushed" and have to play faster. You guys can't have it both ways.

[jmgurgeh]

[ QUOTE ]
I find it funny when people complain they only get 30 hand/hour in a casino but they can get 60+ online. Then a dealer runs the game fast and they are now upset that they
"feel rushed" and have to play faster. You guys can't have it both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where exactly did he makes this complaint?

[CountDuckula]

[ QUOTE ]
I find it funny when people complain they only get 30 hand/hour in a casino but they can get 60+ online. Then a dealer runs the game fast and they are now upset that they
"feel rushed" and have to play faster. You guys can't have it both ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but online, it's simply impossible for someone to act out of turn. The software won't let anyone else act until the person whose turn it is either acts or times out. Personally, I do prefer the B&M experience when I can get it, but alas, that's not often.

-Mike

[smoore]

Yes, you were a little out of line in your reaction to the situation. It is a rule, but two checks should not be significant action in my opinioin. I like three. The dealer was wrong because the button couldn't act yet. He checked WAY out of turn and then the early limper checked out of turn. You tried to protect your action but missed. It's a bad situation but it's only one hand. Just mutter under your breath and soldier on. I am not a dealer but I would have solved this by saying, "OK, start the flop betting over. YOUR.TURN." That may be incorrect, I'm not sure.

By the way, what did the BB do? Was he waiting for you to act still? If he was that is a big point in your favor for protecting your action, "Well, THIS GUY knew I needed to act!"

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
Where exactly did he makes this complaint?


[/ QUOTE ]

Read my post again genius. I never singled anyone out. I just said "people" in general.

[aargh57]

[ QUOTE ]

and with 3 people in the pot, you should have bet this anyway

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is this? I sometimes bet w 2nd pair and one or two opponents but usually not with three or more still in. I don't want to derail the post, though, so you don't have to elaborate if you don't want to.

[joeboe2001]

Before I look at the rest of the responses, I will put my money on you.

The dealer is out of line--it is his responsibility to make sure everyone acts in order, and his alone.

But, if you are playing with fresh dead money that doesn't even know when to act, you probably shouldn'r complain too much!

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]

The dealer is out of line--it is his responsibility to make sure everyone acts in order, and his alone.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please learn the rules of poker before you state incorrect rules.

From Bob Ciaffone's Rules of Poker (standard cardroom rules)
[ QUOTE ]
11. To retain the right to act, a player must stop the action by calling “time” (or an equivalent word). Failure to stop the action before three or more players have acted behind you may cause you to lose the right to act. You cannot forfeit your right to act if any player in front of you has not acted, only if you fail to act when it legally becomes your turn. Therefore, if you wait for someone whose turn comes before you, and three or more players act behind you, this still does not hinder your right to act.



[/ QUOTE ]

According to this, the dealer was perfectly in his right to enforce the rule.

[joeboe2001]

I stand corrected. And I still think it sucks.

I am imagining this happening near the end of a tournament--just once. Three players left--SB and BB check, UTG is out of luck with a good hand. How can that EVER be right?

[RacersEdge]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The dealer is out of line--it is his responsibility to make sure everyone acts in order, and his alone.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please learn the rules of poker before you state incorrect rules.

From Bob Ciaffone's Rules of Poker (standard cardroom rules)
[ QUOTE ]
11. To retain the right to act, a player must stop the action by calling “time” (or an equivalent word). Failure to stop the action before three or more players have acted behind you may cause you to lose the right to act. You cannot forfeit your right to act if any player in front of you has not acted, only if you fail to act when it legally becomes your turn. Therefore, if you wait for someone whose turn comes before you, and three or more players act behind you, this still does not hinder your right to act.



[/ QUOTE ]

According to this, the dealer was perfectly in his right to enforce the rule.

[/ QUOTE ]


That might be the way the rule is written, but that's not the way it is enforced. I have never heard a single player say "time" or even a dealer teling a person to say "time" if they need time. The dealers I've seen basically point to each player in turn to keep everything straight. I think they should be doing this - that's what they're there for - to control the game.

[Photoc]

[ QUOTE ]
That might be the way the rule is written, but that's not the way it is enforced. I have never heard a single player say "time" or even a dealer teling a person to say "time" if they need time.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what you are saying is that you are unhappy that a dealer enforced the rules correctly instead of letting the players run the games. You should be happy that a dealer is actually enforcing the rules. No matter if it works for you or against you, you have one that enforces rules plain and simple. I wish all dealers would do this.

[joeboe2001]

Not to argue, but...

...the previous rule sez "intentional" playing out of turn is not allowed. The dealer should never be put in the position of having to determine whether an action is intentional or not. I've only been doing this about 12 months...but it seems the rules could be improved. Especially the one that doesn't let people smoke cigars in most card rooms!!!

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
That might be the way the rule is written, but that's not the way it is enforced. I have never heard a single player say "time" or even a dealer teling a person to say "time" if they need time. The dealers I've seen basically point to each player in turn to keep everything straight. I think they should be doing this - that's what they're there for - to control the game.


[/ QUOTE ]

What part of the country do you play in? I have never been in a game where the experienced players didn't know to protect their action.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
The dealers I've seen basically point to each player in turn to keep everything straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

A dealer should never point; it is rude to point.

[fingokra]

I wasn't complaining about the pace of the game. I play considerably more online than b&m at this point and would prefer a faster pace game. My complaint is the mistakes that he makes or causes others to make by trying to be in a rush for his own profit.

This all happened in seriously maybe two seconds.

I must correct one part of the story. I was bb, small blind folded and additional player was mid/mid late.

[spoohunter]

[ QUOTE ]
I stand corrected. And I still think it sucks.

I am imagining this happening near the end of a tournament--just once. Three players left--SB and BB check, UTG is out of luck with a good hand. How can that EVER be right?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's to prevent angleshooting, and it's a fine rule. Just like the one chip rule.

[Photoc]

Not to argue back but where does it say one rule has to be violated for the other to be violated? Each rule is independent of the other. Notice that each rule has a separate number and has no reference to any other rules. So yes, it is the players responsibility and if you feel otherwise, discuss it with each individual room you play in. But mind you, the answer will be about 90% the same. I'm just quoting rules that are in print, not the way players like to interpret them.

[RacersEdge]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
That might be the way the rule is written, but that's not the way it is enforced. I have never heard a single player say "time" or even a dealer teling a person to say "time" if they need time. The dealers I've seen basically point to each player in turn to keep everything straight. I think they should be doing this - that's what they're there for - to control the game.


[/ QUOTE ]

What part of the country do you play in? I have never been in a game where the experienced players didn't know to protect their action.

[/ QUOTE ]

I play in Tunica. I doubt saying "time" would work. It's not just when a player takes longer to make a decision - people aren't aware of who is in the hand. It's easy not to be able to see the hands next to you if you are in seats 3-7. I also seriuosly doubt anyone delays to get a giveaway from the players left to act.

[Guthrie]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He tells me that if I don't like it I can play elsewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would never, ever, tip that dealer again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ever.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
I play in Tunica. I doubt saying "time" would work. It's not just when a player takes longer to make a decision - people aren't aware of who is in the hand. It's easy not to be able to see the hands next to you if you are in seats 3-7. I also seriuosly doubt anyone delays to get a giveaway from the players left to act.

[/ QUOTE ]

There area a lot fewer angle shooters in Tunica. I can also remember dealing and playing in some games where the players didn't know "time" means stop what you are doing. As a contrast I read accounts of Gardena in the 70s that people would ask for "time" when taking too long in the checkout at the grocery (no idea about the truthfulness, but I remember reading it). Thr rule in Tunica is still that you have to protect you action, but there is a good chance if you aren't at the Horseshoe that the floor staff will be unfamiliar with the rule.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
He tells me that if I don't like it I can play elsewhere.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would never, ever, tip that dealer again.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Arg. You guys aren't really thinking that clearly here.

Firstly, I agree with other posters. If you know you're going to take a while, say Time. If you see someone act out of turn (edit: when it's your turn), say time, stop, etc.

Never say it's a dumb rule.

Always call the floor.

You don't have to argue with the dealer, ever. Never ever. Just talk to the floor.

Also, the dealer can't tell you to leave. Only a floorman / Security / Local police / judge. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I was going to say all of these things, but I've only got like 100 hours of B&M experience, so I thought it would be more likely that I'd screw it up. For example, I had no idea what "sig. act." precedents were in place.

Finally, I wouldn't boycott tipping this guy for the rest of your/his career. Everyone's allowed to get a little pissed off every now and then, especially when a client is getting upset and saying rude stuff at the same time.

I was pretty surprised by zuluking weighing in on that side, since with a bunch of posts, you'd figure he'd have seen some "redemption" at B&M's. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

--Dave.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

The dealer is out of line--it is his responsibility to make sure everyone acts in order, and his alone.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please learn the rules of poker before you state incorrect rules.

From Bob Ciaffone's Rules of Poker (standard cardroom rules)
[ QUOTE ]
11. To retain the right to act, a player must stop the action by calling “time” (or an equivalent word). Failure to stop the action before three or more players have acted behind you may cause you to lose the right to act. You cannot forfeit your right to act if any player in front of you has not acted, only if you fail to act when it legally becomes your turn. Therefore, if you wait for someone whose turn comes before you, and three or more players act behind you, this still does not hinder your right to act.



[/ QUOTE ]

According to this, the dealer was perfectly in his right to enforce the rule.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ciaffone isn't the floorman. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Photoc]

I didn't say he was. I just quoted the rules that 90%+ of the poker rooms will and do go by. The dealer enforced the correct rules, end of discussion /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[jmgurgeh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Where exactly did he makes this complaint?


[/ QUOTE ]

Read my post again genius. I never singled anyone out. I just said "people" in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing like flaming people after they've pointed out your mistake, eh? You used an irrelevant generalization that was totally unsubstantiated by the posts in this thread to make a dumb point, then you said it didn't apply to anyone in particular (I guess when you wrote "you guys" you meant "not you guys, other guys"). And then you tried to say that I'm the one who is dumb.

Genius.

[Photoc]

Well this thread has gone to hell.

Here is my original post:

[ QUOTE ]
I find it funny when people complain they only get 30 hand/hour in a casino but they can get 60+ online. Then a dealer runs the game fast and they are now upset that they
"feel rushed" and have to play faster. You guys can't have it both ways.


[/ QUOTE ]

Where does it say guys or you guys?

I never pointed anyone out in particular. if I did, please find it and PM it to me. And yes, 90% of regular players either complain to someone or openly about not getting enough hands out. Lots of those players are the same ones to cry when the dealers try to move the game along to satisfy both theirs and the players needs/wants for game speed.

People just can't have it both ways.

[jmgurgeh]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is my original post:

[ QUOTE ]
I find it funny when people complain they only get 30 hand/hour in a casino but they can get 60+ online. Then a dealer runs the game fast and they are now upset that they
"feel rushed" and have to play faster. You guys can't have it both ways.


[/ QUOTE ]

Where does it say guys or you guys?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bolded for convenience. Maybe I've not read as many posts, but I don't see the same volume of complaining about that. My major complaints about B&M poker are actually not at all about speed, and everything about dealers making bad or obvious mistakes (all my B&M so far has been at Foxwoods), which have cost my friends and I a lot more money than slow play. A dealer running a game fast can only speed things up so much with slow players; a dealer running a game well can stop a lot of bad things from happening, like what hapened in the original post.

If you're right about 90% of players complaining about the slowness of B&M without thought to the problems of forcing dealers to rush, I think they're misguided.

[Photoc]

I stand corrected. Thank you for pointing it out.

[Randy_Refeld]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're right about 90% of players complaining about the slowness of B&M without thought to the problems of forcing dealers to rush, I think they're misguided.

[/ QUOTE ]

Complaints of the dealer going are very common. I was in the box in LA for my first earthquake out there; I was dealing and it suprised me so I stopped dealing for a couple of seconds and multiple players started yelling about it.