QQ against unknown all-in on flop

[FreakDaddy]

Second hand for villian at the table. What do you do, flip a coin?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

BB ($24.65)
UTG ($40.79)
Hero ($49.95)
UTG+2 ($15.5)
MP1 ($24.75)
MP2 ($24.5)
MP3 ($20.05)
CO ($33.32)
Button ($25.88)
SB ($30.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
UTG calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $2</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls $2, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls $2, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG folds.

Flop: ($6.60) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $7</font>, MP1 calls $22.75 (All-In), Button folds, Hero calls $15.75.

Turn: ($52.10) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

River: ($52.10) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players, 1 all-in)</font>

Final Pot: $52.10

[Raydain]

I'd call this every time. There is a wide range of hands Villian could have, most of which you have beat.

[Suntzu00000]

Usually when guys go all-in on a huge flop raise they are saying "PLEASE DON'T CALL ME I HAVE TOP PAIR OR A FLUSH DRAW AND I REALLY REALLY WANT TO WIN THIS POT." This is an auto-call against an unknown.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd call this every time. There is a wide range of hands Villian could have, most of which you have beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

The real problem I have here is I raised pre-flop, he calls. I would assume that he would re-raise KK,AA or JJ - hopefullt TT too, but who knows at this level. So I feel fairly confident that I'm either against AJs, 77 or 33 (which would all be a bad calls). The only hands that I could reasonably deduce from that was either AJ or 99. So when you say wide range of hands, I don't think it's really that wide, unless you can think of something else reasonable?

[kurto]

I think you're right... without a read, its a coinflip.

I doubt he has Aces or kings because he'd most likely reraise.

If the villain is any good, he's got a set and is worried about the hearts.

Possible semi-bluff with something like AJsuited. (which would give him a slight advantage on the flop)

If he's an idiot... could be any jack, or 10s.

I have to admit... I don't assume the opponent is an idiot until I've seen them play for awhile. With no read, I'd consider folding. I like to see a few rotations to confirm who's playing stupid and who's bet means it.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Usually when guys go all-in on a huge flop raise they are saying "PLEASE DON'T CALL ME I HAVE TOP PAIR OR A FLUSH DRAW AND I REALLY REALLY WANT TO WIN THIS POT." This is an auto-call against an unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know if I agree. If I had that the opponents stack (I'd never play with half a stack but that's beside the point), and I had a set with a scary flush draw on the board, and someone showed aggression, I'd go all in too.

The same if I had 2 pair (granted that's unlikely with this board... but I'm just pointing out that there's many GOOD reasons to go all in here so I wouldn't just assume the person's making a terrible bet.)

Also... though I agree Aces or Kings SHOULD have reraised, I keep taking pots down from idiots who try to slowplay aces or kings and then go all in after I've hit 2 pair. It shouldn't be ruled out.

Top Pair and/or overpairs often lose very big pots because people get attached to them.

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you're right... without a read, its a coinflip.

I doubt he has Aces or kings because he'd most likely reraise.

If the villain is any good, he's got a set and is worried about the hearts.

Possible semi-bluff with something like AJsuited. (which would give him a slight advantage on the flop)

If he's an idiot... could be any jack, or 10s.

I have to admit... I don't assume the opponent is an idiot until I've seen them play for awhile. With no read, I'd consider folding. I like to see a few rotations to confirm who's playing stupid and who's bet means it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think that's the most solid advice I've heard on this forum. Perhaps because I agree with it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Seriously, just seems like everyone on here assumes the players are morons and I don't do that personally. Well, when I do I tend to lose a lot of money. From my experience I don't see too many players going all-in with a reasonable sized stack unless they have something. I placed villian on AJs, or 99 and the thing that tilted me towards a call was the all-in bet which is a bad bet in my opinion when you flop a set against two opponents, even with the flush draw. A good size raise is fine here. As it goes, villian made a bad call pre-flop, a bad play on the flop (unless he's psychic and could put me on high pair and not AQ or KA), and he took down the pot with a pair of 33's.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Seriously, just seems like everyone on here assumes the players are morons and I don't do that personally.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. Every once in a while someone points out that assuming everyone is an idiot is just going to cost you money. I called a river bet with second lowest pair on the board and won... because I'd been sitting with the guy long enough to know he made all sorts of terrible bluffs. Had I just sat down at the table, I would have folded it. I'm one of the biggest advocates of 'know your enemy.' Its all about the read.

[ QUOTE ]
I placed villian on AJs, or 99 and the thing that tilted me towards a call was the all-in bet which is a bad bet in my opinion when you flop a set against two opponents, even with the flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

It really depends on the table to decide if the all-in is bad. The perfect bet is largest amount that people will call with improper odds. If you think people will call your all-in bet, then you should do it every time.

Considering his short-stack AND the flush draw, any raise he would have made (and he should have reraised... he doesn't want to give a flush draw proper odds) would have pot committed him. Its not so bad in his case. (if he had a full stack, I think it would have been too much.)


[ QUOTE ]
As it goes, villian made a bad call pre-flop,

[/ QUOTE ]

You raised it 4bb. It was less then 10% of either of your stacks. I don't know anyone here who would fold a pocket pair preflop for a standard raise. You're playing too tight if you don't agree with his call preflop. Aces and kings are the workhorse hands. Low-mid pocket pairs playing for sets are the BIG pot winners.

[FreakDaddy]

Actually I raised it 8xBB. Still like the pre-flop call? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[theredpill5]

Freak,

Pot is about $6 . You bet $7 on the flop and he is still coming back at you. I think I would fold this. This is a tough one. You had no info on him at all ? You showed a lot of strength with that $7 bet. This is .10/.25 NL and $7 is 1/3rd one's starting stack. I think this is a fold for that reason. When deciding whether to call or fold, it is best to put yourself in their shoes. What are they seeing ? I think the fact that their is a flush draw and your big bet speaks volumes about his all-in .

[theredpill5]

His preflop call wasn't horrible. He needs to make $16 on the play for it to be profitable. He doubled up , thus, he made money on it. Also, guy behind him also called preflop so there was another bet that he didn't have to make postflop.

[kurto]

[ QUOTE ]
Actually I raised it 8xBB. Still like the pre-flop call?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, right. I've been playing $50NL lately so my mind saw a 4xbb raise.

With that being said, his call is still fine. With your raise, he would know that you're likely to have a decent overpair that you're going to play strongly. He knows if he hits, he's going to make a decent pot. Furthermore, his hand is easy to play... either he hits a set or he folds.

So long as the raise is less then 10% of either players stack, a call with any pocket pair is reasonable. He had the odds to play it for set value.