HEPFAP talk is getting to me...

[wrto4556]

Villian is TAG. 19/10/3.7

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, BB folds, MP1 folds.

Turn: (3.16 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks...

Basically, I don't see what she's calling with that I have beat or that i'm getting to fold. I fear a turn raise so I check/call.

Standard or passive?

[Yobz]

I think I like a bet here, if she folds 1/3 times, its a winning proposition plus the chance of you still hitting your flush. What sucks is that villian is a tag, might raise you and you have to call. Meh, if that happens you can check/fold river...your line isnt terrible though

[GatorXP]

I like the bet as well, as you my get Villian to fold and a raise isnt the end of the world as you await the next Diamond.

[wrto4556]

I guess im trying too much stuff. This is my second time to jump the 3/6 and it keeps whooping my ass.

What do you imagine she would peel with on the flop?

[chesspain]

Fold preflop.

[Nick C]

I don't think you're winning the hand unimproved, and I wouldn't want to get raised on the turn, which is a possibility.

I like the check.

[sthief09]

yeah I think that's good. it looks a lot like a ten

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
I think I like a bet here, if she folds 1/3 times, its a winning proposition plus the chance of you still hitting your flush. What sucks is that villian is a tag, might raise you and you have to call. Meh, if that happens you can check/fold river...your line isnt terrible though

[/ QUOTE ]


all that and you didn't bother putting him on a range of hands

[DMBFan23]

I think if you are check raising him with T hands, then this is fine as it sets up a possible, semibluff, cheap card, or possible pot steal on the end should you miss.

if you are not check raising him a whole lot then betting might set you up to bluff him off of his flush draw or get him to fold a better hand, and you dont HATE a raise, although it would suck. I bet about 40% of the time here, as a rough, non-data-driven estimate.

[sthief09]

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Fold preflop.

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yeah that too though I don't think it's too bad

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop.

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I thought the call preflop was standard. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

The table was good...

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you're winning the hand unimproved, and I wouldn't want to get raised on the turn, which is a possibility.

I like the check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah that and the pot is small. and true it does look exactly how a ten would play it, hoping for overcalls then going for a turn CR. But she could also have overs, but then she'd probabaly raise preflop given her stats.

I check it, larger pot I may bet and if CR Id check/fold the river if it didn't hit me.

[deetle]

I fold preflop. Suited 2 gap, 1 limper I dont like the pot odds for this call

[chesspain]

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Fold preflop.

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I thought the call preflop was standard. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

The table was good...

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So even though a TAG openlimped in from of you, and you still have five players left to act behind you, and you have little chance of receiving the button, you want to jump into this pot with a pretty marginal hand?

[wrto4556]

I didn't think I needed pot odds.

I'm trying to take off my training wheels (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&amp;Number=495010&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;sb=5&amp;o =&amp;fpart=all&amp;vc=1).

[oreogod]

[ QUOTE ]
I think if you are check raising him with T hands, then this is fine as it sets up a possible, semibluff, cheap card, or possible pot steal on the end should you miss.

if you are not check raising him a whole lot then betting might set you up to bluff him off of his flush draw or get him to fold a better hand, and you dont HATE a raise, although it would suck. I bet about 40% of the time here, as a rough, non-data-driven estimate.

[/ QUOTE ]

That to.

You old avtar was a woman? Christ, I thought it was just some fugly looking dude. Whoa, thats a trip.

[wrto4556]

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Fold preflop.

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I thought the call preflop was standard. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

The table was good...

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So even though a TAG openlimped in from of you, and you still have five players left to act behind you, and you have little chance of receiving the button, you want to jump into this pot with a pretty marginal hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

The TAG was behind me. A loose/passive player limped in front of me.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
The TAG was behind me. A loose/passive player limped in front of me.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is pretty important information that you left out of the post. However, I would probably still fold.

[deetle]

I did not say the call was horrible, i personally just like to play it with a couple limpers in front. The thread you linked was great.

[wrto4556]

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The TAG was behind me. A loose/passive player limped in front of me.

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This is pretty important information that you left out of the post. However, I would probably still fold.

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Fair enough. When do you start limping?

[Victor]

i like the check here only because the pot is small.

[chesspain]

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The TAG was behind me. A loose/passive player limped in front of me.

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This is pretty important information that you left out of the post. However, I would probably still fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. When do you start limping?

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With Q9s?...on the button and sometimes the CO. And maybe from the hijack if the table is fairly loose-passive.

[sthief09]

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The TAG was behind me. A loose/passive player limped in front of me.

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This is pretty important information that you left out of the post. However, I would probably still fold.

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Fair enough. When do you start limping?

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With Q9s?...on the button and sometimes the CO. And maybe from the hijack if the table is fairly loose-passive.

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I think you're too tight

[Willluck]

I always limp w/ Q9s in this situation...I just thought that it was a standard play.

[chesspain]

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I think you're too tight

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"I've got kids to feed, Mike." /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[purnell]

I bet/call this turn. Preflop fold would be OK with the 1/3 blind structure.

[Klepton]

this is a fold preflop, but you still have the bet the turn

in fact you gained more out if she does have anything

if you blank the river you can safely check/fold

the main problem with this hand is your cal preflop...Q9s is not strgon enough from that position

[obsidian]

I'm thinking the villian either has a T or a flush draw. I would bet out the turn, and if called, would bet out the river almost no matter what. If raised, you are probably up against a T and can fold the river unimproved.

[Bill C]

[ QUOTE ]
Villian is TAG. 19/10/3.7

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls, MP3 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, BB checks.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP3 calls, BB folds, MP1 folds.

Turn: (3.16 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks...

Basically, I don't see what she's calling with that I have beat or that i'm getting to fold. I fear a turn raise so I check/call.

Standard or passive?

[/ QUOTE ]

As second in P/F you limped behind a "loose passive". Why not raise? You might say "the hand isn't that strong" and in so doing, would explain to yourself why it's a pretty marginal hand to limp with. That said, I don't think it was horrible to come in with it, but I would generally fold it unless I was in LP.

Villain has limped in behind you and then called one on the flop. Not much info there; pretty benign stuff. I think any hand-range for Villain at this point has to be pretty large and even include many hands that are absolutely no threat to you. There has been absolutely NO pressure exerted by anybody yet. I would guess Villain would put you on an over-pair, a flush draw, or possibly a 10 at this point. Your check on the turn helps villain a bit, probably moving flush draw to the top of her list, and still allowing for the other possibilities too. While you can checkraise here, you run the risk of her checking it down and leaving some awkwardness on the river. Plus if you check here, as you did, and now she bets, you have handed over control of the hand to her. Now you'll be thinking she has the big hand her bet represents, whether she has it or not. You have thus given her a chance to steal.

So I'd bet out on the turn rather than checking here, representing an OP or a 10, to put on a little pressure with a semi-bluff. You are giving her a chance to fold. If she just calls, you get to see the river for one bet. If she raises you can make a decision at that point, probably folding.

Just my $.02 worth...

bill c

[Nick C]

Let's think about what Villain might have on the flop. She's a TAG with a 3.7 aggresssion factor, and the pot is small. If she has a hand like, say, 55, is she going to just call? I think that, if she decides to stay in, she'll raise to protect her hand instead, and the same goes for tens over sixes. She's unlikely to have two overcards (and I'm not sure she'd call with them even if she did, unless backdoor draws pushed it to a call for her), since she didn't raise preflop, and I doubt she's calling with just one, unless it's a suited A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, with which of course she's at least calling.

The other possibility, and I suspect the most likely one, is that she has trip 10's.

Firing twice on the big streets into a larger flush draw could win the pot if another diamond doesn't fall and Villain doesn't catch a pair either. But it's an expensive way to go after the small pot, and I think that if Hero bets the turn, he's going to get raised by trip tens very frequently. It seems to me that betting is hoping for one of these five hands: Ad8d, Ad5d, Ad4d, Ad3d, and Ad2d.

[Bill C]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's think about what Villain might have on the flop. She's a TAG with a 3.7 aggresssion factor, and the pot is small. If she has a hand like, say, 55, is she going to just call? I think that, if she decides to stay in, she'll raise to protect her hand instead, and the same goes for tens over sixes. She's unlikely to have two overcards (and I'm not sure she'd call with them even if she did, unless backdoor draws pushed it to a call for her), since she didn't raise preflop, and I doubt she's calling with just one, unless it's a suited A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, with which of course she's at least calling.

The other possibility, and I suspect the most likely one, is that she has trip 10's.

Firing twice on the big streets into a larger flush draw could win the pot if another diamond doesn't fall and Villain doesn't catch a pair either. But it's an expensive way to go after the small pot, and I think that if Hero bets the turn, he's going to get raised by trip tens very frequently. It seems to me that betting is hoping for one of these five hands: Ad8d, Ad5d, Ad4d, Ad3d, and Ad2d.

[/ QUOTE ]

You don't suppose she'd raise P/F with 10-10? Surely if she'd raise 5-5, she'd raise 10-10.

And if she'd raise the turn with a set or two pair, that's what Hero wants to find out when he bets. Because her raise tells him he's very likely behind, but still with a flush draw.

Yes, she could have AXs, in which she'd probably call the turn bet, suspecting Hero has the 10's, which he has represented, and if she did have AXs, and a diamond falls, she'd raise his river bet.

I'm not sure I understand the last sentence of your post. Could you explain it? Who is it that's hoping for those hands and why?

bc


bc

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
Let's think about what Villain might have on the flop. She's a TAG with a 3.7 aggresssion factor, and the pot is small. If she has a hand like, say, 55, is she going to just call? I think that, if she decides to stay in, she'll raise to protect her hand instead, and the same goes for tens over sixes. She's unlikely to have two overcards (and I'm not sure she'd call with them even if she did, unless backdoor draws pushed it to a call for her), since she didn't raise preflop, and I doubt she's calling with just one, unless it's a suited A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, with which of course she's at least calling.

The other possibility, and I suspect the most likely one, is that she has trip 10's.

Firing twice on the big streets into a larger flush draw could win the pot if another diamond doesn't fall and Villain doesn't catch a pair either. But it's an expensive way to go after the small pot, and I think that if Hero bets the turn, he's going to get raised by trip tens very frequently. It seems to me that betting is hoping for one of these five hands: Ad8d, Ad5d, Ad4d, Ad3d, and Ad2d.

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[ QUOTE ]
You don't suppose she'd raise P/F with 10-10? Surely if she'd raise 5-5, she'd raise 10-10.

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She probably wouldn't raise preflop with 55. I do think she'd raise TT preflop, and I don't think she has quads. What I was saying is that I think there's a good chance she'd raise a pocket pair on the flop, if she decided to continue playing that pair.

So I think it's quite possible she has a hand like JTs, T9s, or ATo and is waiting to pop the turn with it.

[ QUOTE ]
And if she'd raise the turn with a set or two pair, that's what Hero wants to find out when he bets. Because her raise tells him he's very likely behind, but still with a flush draw.

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I think Hero basically already knows his queen-high is behind once he gets called on the flop (unless Villain plays very low suited connectors in MP, which seems doubtful). Hero doesn't know what he's trailing, but he's going to have to improve or get Villain to fold to win.

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, she could have AXs, in which she'd probably call the turn bet, suspecting Hero has the 10's, which he has represented, and if she did have AXs, and a diamond falls, she'd raise his river bet.

I'm not sure I understand the last sentence of your post. Could you explain it? Who is it that's hoping for those hands and why?

[/ QUOTE ]

If Villain won't fold to a turn bet (and I don't think she will), the benefit Hero could still gain from betting the turn is that it would set up a river bluff, in the event that both players are on the same draw and miss.

Personally, I wouldn't want Villain to have A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif X /images/graemlins/diamond.gif at all, since I don't think I would fire at the turn and then the river without improving in this hand, and I wouldn't want to make my flush and lose to a bigger one. But a turn bet is setting up a river bluff against a busted flush. What I meant at the end of the post is that a turn bet really only has benefit against another diamond draw, which Hero might be able to push out on the river.

[That guy]

I raise this pre-flop and try to take control of this pot. Folding Q9-suited here is too tight.

1 limper means if nobody else calls, you can probably take this one down with a flop bet if either a A or K hits. If you get cold-donked in a few places, then you are probably going to have to hit the flop to win but the pot will be bigger to pursue something like 2nd pair + back-door draw...

[Bill C]

Good and interesting reply, Nick C.
Thanks!

bc