Do you call or fold?

[digdug]

Should you call a bet in a limit hold em game if after the flop you are getting the right odds but you know that after the turn you will not have the correct odds to call if you miss on the turn. For example, you are BB, player to your left raises there are 2 callers and you call. Flop comes you have second pair and an over card. You have 5 outs to make a set or 2 pair. Original raiser bets and the other 2 fold to you. Pot is offering you 9:1 to call and your odds against making the hand on the turn are 8:1 but if you don't make it on the turn and your opponent bets then you are only getting 6:1 to call. Should you consider the fact that after the flop your odds of making the hand on one of the next two cards are 4:1 or do you make your decision based on the odds on the turn and then the river.

[The_Bends]

If you are getting 9:1 and the odds of catching to make the winning hand on the turn are 8:1 then you should call. The pot odds on the river do not influence whether the turn call is correct or not.

[digdug]

So if you don't make the hand on the turn should you consider the fact that the odds after the flop were 4:1 against making it on the next 2 cards and then call a bet on the river when your pot odds are 6:1? Or after the turn do you calculate your odds just for one more card to come, and then fold?

[Schwartzy61]

[ QUOTE ]
So if you don't make the hand on the turn should you consider the fact that the odds after the flop were 4:1 against making it on the next 2 cards and then call a bet on the river when your pot odds are 6:1? Or after the turn do you calculate your odds just for one more card to come, and then fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I usually recalculate every step of the way. But it can really depend.

If you say to yourself that you will see the river no matter what card comes next then yes you should consider the turn bet when calculating odds and implied odds.

However, if you say I have odds to see the turn but will not call any more bets unless i hit my hand then no you do not have to consider the odds to the river.

At least that's the way I look at it...

[olavfo]

If the pot odds on the flop justify calling to see one more card, then call. Then recalculate on the turn.

For example you can often call correctly with a gutshot straight draw on the flop, but you frequently have to fold it on the turn, since the double bet size cuts down your pot odds too much.

But whether or not you'll have sufficient pot odds on the turn doesn't affect your decision whether to call or fold on the flop.

olavfo

[Louie Landale]

When calling slim, calculate each card separately. Generally it means you DO make one call since the odds are generally better and you implied odds (future bets) are a lot better on the flop than on the turn.

I may be wrong, but you seem to confuse the odds against "winning" with the odds against "improving". You may have 5 outs but you are going to lose a lot of the time you DO make it: 2 pair is NOT a lock. Pot odds calculations compare your odds against actually winning the pot with the bet-to-pot-size odds. Counting outs is just one step to figuring out if you are going to win.

- Louie

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

I'm assuming you mean that there's a good chance the PF raise has hit the flop. In limit poker you have to traet each card separately. Since you have odds to call and you close the action, of course you call.

[johnc]

You must factor your possible reverse implied odds into your descision otherwise the pot odds you have now are not a realistic assessment of your chances on the turn or river.

[AnyTwoCanLose]

You need to figure out what you will get if you win and what you will lose if you lose.

You ABSOLUTELY figure in what might happen on later streets.

For example... if you are playing with a couple players that will call no matter what... the upside of hitting is greater...

Therefore... many folds become calls.

Not factoring later streets is a mistake. There's a guy named David Sklansky that wrote a lot of books about poker. Several of these books have lots of info on implied odds and reverse implied odds.

Very important reading if you want to be better than okay.