Ok Kids, 100k Hands in, lets hear it.... [Archive]

View Full Version : Ok Kids, 100k Hands in, lets hear it....

mtdoak

05-01-2005, 03:51 PM

A quick note: My game has changed alot over the last 40k or so hands. My VPIP is around 17.6 and PF% is 8.99 during that period, both up for the 100k numbers. It would probably be an interesting post to see my transformation from an average/marginal SSH player to a good, consistent winning SSH player (IMHO, at least). For around 20k hands (during a NASTY run of -.5 BB/100 over 20k hands), i played very weak tightish and didn't think when i played, I just played, and got pissed when i lost, so i played less agressive, and lost more. It was after this downswing that I came to and rounded my game into form. My BB/100 isn't the best, but, I would say I wasn't playing good until my last 40k hands or so. So, without further ado: my 100k numbers

Total Hands: 100,245

VPIP: 16.56%
Folded to SB Steal: 83.18
Folded to BB steal: 60.22
Folded to BB steal HU: 52.27

Blind Defense:
SB
Fold: 30.97%
Ww/oSD%: 29.20
WSD%:39.82
W$SD%:33.33
BB
Fold: 39.66
Ww/oSD%: 22.91
WSD%:37.43
W$SD%:44.03

Att to steal blinds: 24.21%
No Flop: 31.25%
Fold: 17.88%
Ww/oSD%: 52.34%
WSD%:29.77
W$SD%:50.44

Won$when say flop: 33.87
BB/100: 1.36

Went to showdown: 34.38
Won$at SD: 51.55

Raised preflop: 8.07
Limp/Call Reraise PF: 0.00% (NO use for this move, IMHO)

Agression factor: 1.49
Preflop: .76
Flop: 2.88
Turn: 2.39
River: 1.54

My thoughts on what I need to fix:
#1. RIVER AGRESSION. Jesus H. Christ, I'm a pretty little girl on the river. I've improved my play ALOT over the last 40k hands, but my river agression is still low. Am I not value betting enough? Taking free showdowns too often. Help!!
#2. Overall VPIP: I think 17 is right for me, though, I could see myself playing well at 18-19ish.
#3. Blind Defense: I went through a period where I violently defended my blinds against every steal. Well I don't think thats the right way to do it, I have found TAGs try and steal my blind less and less.
#4. I feel my game is solid, but I think with some work, it could be great. My name on Party skins is DblGutted, so if you ever see me pull a dumbass move or just a bad habit/tendacy i have, please, let me know. I know I still have work to do and am open to criticism.

PokerBob

05-01-2005, 04:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My name on Party skins is DblGutted, so if you ever see me pull a dumbass move or just a bad habit/tendacy i have, please, let me know. I know I still have work to do and am open to criticism.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't ever flop a set of 8's when I have KK again. Ever.

mtdoak

05-01-2005, 04:05 PM

Bitterness runs deeeeeep. I'll try not to....

Schwartzy61

05-01-2005, 04:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My name on Party skins is DblGutted, so if you ever see me pull a dumbass move or just a bad habit/tendacy i have, please, let me know. I know I still have work to do and am open to criticism.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't ever flop a set of 8's when I have KK again. Ever.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well next time you should hit a set of K's against his lower set to make up for it...

party36master

05-01-2005, 04:46 PM

Here's an interesting one from the archives:

SB is maniac, 84/30 over 350 hands.
I am 20.4/11.3/1.7

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: DblGutted is Button w/10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

.
6 folds, Hero raises, Button :#A500AF(DblGutted)/ 3-bets, SB calls, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (10 SB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, DblGutted bets, SB folds, Hero raises, DblGutted 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, DblGutted raises, Hero 3-bets, DblGutted calls.

River: (14 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets, DblGutted calls.

Final Pot: 16 BB

mtdoak

05-01-2005, 06:27 PM

I just looked up that hand...that was a LONG time ago. I don't see how I could have played it any better. I probably made some mean comment after that hand as I was an idiot about that back then.

Perseus

05-01-2005, 06:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My name on Party skins is DblGutted, so if you ever see me pull a dumbass move or just a bad habit/tendacy i have, please, let me know. I know I still have work to do and am open to criticism.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny you say that, because I was playing yesterday and you raised my blind from LP and I actually said to my friend: I just know this dblgutted guy is a 2+2er I see him all the time. I bet he could steal with anything here..."

You had a good hand and I lost. I want my money back /images/graemlins/grin.gif

ArturiusX

05-01-2005, 06:51 PM

I'd get a bit looser, but it sounds like you already know that.

mtdoak

05-01-2005, 07:47 PM

Well, if you'll just send me your CC#, exp. date, and mothers maiden name i'll try and refund your money ASAP... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Willluck

05-01-2005, 07:49 PM

what limit is this?

mtdoak

05-01-2005, 07:52 PM

A mix of 2/4, 3/6, and maybe 500 5/10 hands.

mtdoak

05-02-2005, 01:43 AM

shameless 2 am bump

billyjex

05-02-2005, 06:29 AM

steal more blinds. bet the river more.

Fnord

05-02-2005, 06:43 AM

Wow, and I thought I was the one with the weak river aggression...

My older DB has me at:

f 3.31
t 2.92
r 1.71

I'm going to showdown a tad less, winning a tad more and raising over 10% PF.

Then again, I play a lot of tables with empty seats.

Argus

05-02-2005, 08:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, and I thought I was the one with the weak river aggression...

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that river aggression is all it's cracked up to be. I'm probably more passive than most, but you really have to ask: "Who's going to call?" Read the Theory of Poker section about Headsup on the End and you'll realise that a lot of hands that you must bet on the turn are checking hands on the river. Chris Ferguson says that betting the river incorrectly is the worst mistake in poker (http://www.chrisferguson.com/cgi-bin/articlesupdate.cgi?s=2). I would not worry about having a low river aggression - worry about betting correctly.

Fnord

05-02-2005, 08:30 AM

Some thoughts...

o Our opponents make horrible river calls. Even good players need to call with a pretty wide range given how big pots get, making really thin bets correct. I don't think ToP accounts for the amount of truely terrible calls we get.
o In NL it's very different because every bet escalates the stakes. Furthermore, betting weak hands as last to act can be a disaster.
o In a tourney it's very different as you may want to save chips by passing in marginal spots.

Personally, I think the worst river play is re-raising a weak river bet all-in with a weak hand that might win showdown. I see that play all the time and never will understand it.

Argus

05-02-2005, 08:43 AM

My thoughts were only for limit games, but yes I agree that some pretty horrible calls are made that make betting the river more attractive. Still, I think a lot of players forget to evaluate whether they are a 55% favourite if called. ToP accounts for terrible river calls, as long as you account for your opponents' tendency to make them in your evaluation. I still don't see river aggression being nearly as high as other streets unless you're playing with total donks.

Fnord

05-02-2005, 08:45 AM

The linked article gave some NL tourney examples.

Erik W

05-02-2005, 09:17 AM

I totally agree.
You need to call down a lot at the river yourself and that brings down the agg alot.

It would be much worse to stop calling down.

ckessel

05-02-2005, 01:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but you really have to ask: "Who's going to call?" Read the Theory of Poker section about Headsup on the End and you'll realise that a lot of hands that you must bet on the turn are checking hands on the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is spot on. People will look at that 60% win at showdown and think "I should bet EVERY time, I'm winning more than half".

Except many of those bets when you're ahead won't result in additional profit. The person is taking a free showdown or folding, a bet nets you nothing. In the times you lose though you lose the full bet.

You could easily increase your river aggression and reduce your BB/100, because while you're betting out more often, you're not getting as many value-bet calls as you are calls from people who have you're average hand beat.

Plus, if you check a river after betting, often a player will bluff at you with nothing, but wouldn't have called if you'd bet.

I'm not denying the use of value-bets, just agreeing with the point that it seems like even great players would have a river agression lower than the turn/flop aggression.

DMBFan23

05-02-2005, 01:11 PM

I've played a decent amount against you at 3/6, you seem solid. I don't have enough hands to have a great read or anything, but I suspected you were a 2+2er.

mtdoak

05-03-2005, 11:43 AM

Yet another shameless bump

cflynn

05-03-2005, 12:29 PM

I've only got a few hands on you in my database where you went to SD. 2 stand out as potentially misplayed -- one was clear blind steal where you were first in from the button and just called w/ J9o. The other was a somewhat questionable raise from the CO w/ Q6s after one limper.

The other two hands I had opponents flopped sets vs. your AA and QQ respectively. On the AA hand (#1840051753), I would've folded to the turn 3-bet. Much easier call to make in retrospect, obviously.

I think the hands were about a month ago at 2/4. I only have like 100 or so hands on you, but your river aggression is way low. On the plus side, you have the eagle icon, which is by far the coolest looking.

Feel free to PM me if you want additional detail.

Redeye

05-03-2005, 01:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Limp/Call Reraise PF: 0.00% (NO use for this move, IMHO)

[/ QUOTE ]

There are always exceptions in poker, saying there is never a use for this move is overstating things a bit, and it can also be fun!

[ QUOTE ]
#1. RIVER AGRESSION. Jesus H. Christ, I'm a pretty little girl on the river. I've improved my play ALOT over the last 40k hands, but my river agression is still low. Am I not value betting enough? Taking free showdowns too often. Help!!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're river AF is really an artifact of having to call a lot of larger pots because you're getting the odds to do so. I think your number is fairly reasonable and I don't see a lot of people too much higher, if I am recalling correctly.

Harv72b

05-03-2005, 01:19 PM

I found this one from last month...I really don't like calling the turn bet, and I like checking through the river even less. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: mtdoak is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
2 folds, MP1 raises, MP2 3-bets, 5 folds, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 bets, MP1 raises, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5.66 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP1 bets, MP2 calls.

River: (7.66 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP1 checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 7.66 BB
Main Pot: 7.66 BB, between MP1 and MP2. > Pot won by MP2 (7.66 BB).

Results in white below: 
MP1 has Td Th (one pair, tens).
MP2 has As Qd (one pair, aces).
Outcome: MP2 wins 7.66 BB. 

My observations are obviously skewed by the fact that I don't see the hands you fold, but generally speaking it seems like you go too far/pay off too often with big aces.

RolldUp

05-03-2005, 01:20 PM

Run into my quads less /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (5 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
DblGutted raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 2 folds, DblGutted calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
DblGutted checks, Hero bets, DblGutted calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
DblGutted checks, Hero bets, DblGutted calls.

River: (6.75 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
DblGutted checks, Hero bets, DblGutted calls.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB

Harv72b

05-03-2005, 01:35 PM

Looking at the stats in general...

You're a little tight preflop for my tastes, but that's all about personal preference/playing style. There's nothing wrong with 17% or so, obviously. You're getting better about the PFR, but you're still a tad low there; I have one hand from the same session where you limped first in from the CO with KJo (and then checked through on an A-high flop vs. just me in the BB...it worked out when you caught your gutshot on the turn, which also paired my T and gave me a flush draw).

I think your blind defense needs some work, too; at first glance it seems like you're folding a little too often preflop, but at the same time your W$atSD is abyssmal when you do defend. I think this might harken back to what I said above, about paying off too often with big aces. You can also attempt a few more steals; that KJ hand above is a prime example.

There is a use for the limp/reraise move, but it's rarely a good play at limit small stakes. Understand that this play is more about table image than it is about getting more money in the pot with a monster; if you show that you're willing to limp AA or KK from EP, that adds another layer of thought to your opponents' play. If you're really feeling frisky, you can then use that to attempt a steal when somebody isolates you after an EP limp (you should usually have small pockets in that situation anyway, so the l/rr just adds to your folding equity on a rags flop).

That river aggression really needs to come up. And based on my own small sample of your play (~400 hands), your flop aggression needs to be more focused. You're a little too predictable with your overcard hands.

mtdoak

05-03-2005, 02:41 PM

Thanks alot man. Heads up, I do tend to pay off with big aces more than I should, though I have been mucking alot more on the turn when I miss. If you ever seen any glaring mistakes, feel free to PM me and I will try and do the same for you. Thanks again.