JTs after a reraise preflop

[bkawz]

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG ($379.3)
MP ($320.45)
CO ($181.65)
Button ($108.3)
SB ($253.6)
Hero ($740.5)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls $2, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB (poster) completes, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises to $25</font>, SB folds, Hero calls $15.

Flop: ($52) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $30</font>, Hero calls $30.

Turn: ($112) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP bets $30</font>, Hero calls $30.

River: ($172) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP checks.

Final Pot: $172

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Js Ts (two pair, tens and fours).
MP has Kd Ks (two pair, kings and fours).
Outcome: MP wins $172. </font>

[theblitz]

Fold pre-flop.
Best would have been to check and see the flop.
JTs is not as strong as it may seem.
Add to that the fact that you are out of position and there is no way I am playing that hand.
I don't even like the original raise never mind the call of the re-raise.

[bkawz]

forget about preflop, tell me what you do postflop

[poboy]

[ QUOTE ]
forget about preflop, tell me what you do postflop

[/ QUOTE ]

You can't forget preflop, as that is where the whole problem is. Raising a marginal hand OOP and then calling a reraise is just asking for trouble. However since you got yourself in this spot, that is a pretty good flop for you and an even better turn. Yet you play it about as passively as it can be played. 'Check and Call' is a losing strategy, I would have check-raised or led out on the turn. JMO

[just2ska]

you really have to fold JTs pre-flop.. i know you want advice post flop but you should have been in the hand ESPECIALLY after a reraise...

If i were you i'd check to him on the flop.. if his bet is small enough for you to call on a flush draw then do it (maybe a check raise?)... but you're probably behind in this hand the whole way since it sounds like he has an over pair.
lead the turn... if he re raises you a good amount then i think it's time to drop this hand... but fold this pf from now on in this situation

EDIT:
you REALLY should have folded pre-flop... that's a huge part of your problem in this hand.

just2ska

[bkawz]

Why would u check raise that flop against a hand that looks very like an overpair.

[bkawz]

I really dont think there is a big problem in this hand, i called the raise preflop knowing that he has a high pair, i can get away very easy from this hand.

[Siawyn]

Er... you got limp-reraised, and it should have been an easy muck. You can't ignore that it happened because now it stuck you in this situation.

Having said that, you hit about the best damn flop you could hope for, so I check-raise the flop and lead out on the turn. Okay, so you still don't win this hand as it turns out, but that's being results orientated. You are almost even money vs an overpair in that situation -- if he doesn't have a spade in his hand you're actually a slight favorite.

Check calling this type of hand isn't going to make you much money...

However on the turn I would have just called since you're getting laid a good price.

Given that the river ragged off, there's very little fold equity here so check-folding is in order.

[Ghazban]

As others have said, calling the preflop limp/reraise is not good. However, assuming you do that, I'd be pretty aggressive on this flop, either with a checkraise or a lead right into the raiser (possibly reraising if you get raised). A pair plus a flush draw is a favorite over an overpair (which he probably has given the limp/reraise) with two cards to come but can be tough to play if there's still money to be bet when you don't hit any of your 14 outs on the turn. Furthermore, he might lay down if you show some strength. If you just check and call as you did, you have to actually make your hand to win the pot.

[poboy]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would u check raise that flop against a hand that looks very like an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would check-raise because a pair and a flush draw is a slight favorite against an overpair(as long as one of his cards isn't of my suit). Given that he may laydown right there this is far more +ev than check-calling. JMO

[TheWorstPlayer]

Yup. ideal flop. apply maximal pressure.

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would u check raise that flop against a hand that looks very like an overpair.

[/ QUOTE ]

he said he would have c/r'd the turn, not the flop. the reason is that you have 17 outs to beat KK, and 20 outs to beat AA. add that to some fold equity, and c/r'ing is not a bad play.

you keep saying to ignore your preflop play, and everyone is telling you that is where your problem lies. you refuse to accept that, saying "i can easily get away from this hand". well, you didn't get away from it, did you? i'm all for calling raises before the flop with suited connectors, and raising them myself when i have good position. the simple fact is, you [censored] up here by raising with JTs from the blinds when you should have taken the free look.

i have a very clear picture of the guy holding KK. he's saying to himself," the LAG in the BB who's been raising 40% of his hands regardles of position needs a lesson. why don't iset him up a couple times so i can limp in from MP with T9s sometimes without having him raise it up. i want to see some cheap flops, dammit!"

you got played, bro. he couldn't push you harder because he couldn't put you on a hand because you've been raising sporadically with trash. (which is also why you can't C/R the turn. you know you'll get called.)

cheers!

[bkawz]

tripdad u sound like one of those abc whingers at the tables i play at

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
As others have said, calling the preflop limp/reraise is not good. However, assuming you do that, I'd be pretty aggressive on this flop, either with a checkraise or a lead right into the raiser (possibly reraising if you get raised). A pair plus a flush draw is a favorite over an overpair (which he probably has given the limp/reraise) with two cards to come but can be tough to play if there's still money to be bet when you don't hit any of your 14 outs on the turn. Furthermore, he might lay down if you show some strength. If you just check and call as you did, you have to actually make your hand to win the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

i would normally play very aggressively here as well. i think the OP has major image problems with the players at his table, however. i don't think anyone is folding KK against him.

cheers!

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
tripdad u sound like one of those abc whingers at the tables i play at

[/ QUOTE ]

i play the most profitable style i know of for the limits i play. i'm not interested in high variance play. it is more comfortable for me to win $65 on each table, rather than win $365 on one, and be down $275 on another. different strokes for different folks.

i can tell you this: if i sit down, and see someone raising any 2, i'll limp with KK, and come over top. i'll also re-raise big out of the blinds with A4s. works for me, and it's lots of fun to play with guys who want to be like Gus Hansen at the $200 buy-in party tables.

cheers!

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not interested in high variance play.

[/ QUOTE ]

then why did you raise JTs from the BB preflop?

[tripdad]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i'm not interested in high variance play.

[/ QUOTE ]

then why did you raise JTs from the BB preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

i didn't, and wouldn't. please read the thread, along with my posts.

cheers!

[vector]

As requested I'm going to ignore the preflop raise/call.

If we limit opponent to AA,KK after the preflop reraise, you have 49% equity on the flop, a very slight dog. A check raise all in on the flop is one line here: high variance, but certainly profitable and perhaps good for some "crazy" image building.

By the turn (AA,KK only still) you have 39% equity. Less than the flop, but a much bigger pot, and the board looks scarier now to your opponent. A check raise all in here is much more likely to find a fold from AA,KK.

Now lets widen opponents holdings to AA-QQ,AK (suited and off).

Now on the flop you have 65% equity, and on the turn 63% equity. If he wants to make a continuation bet with AK, let him, but I think you need to assert yourself at some point, because the flop and particularly turn bet are so small he is getting too cheap a chance to spike a card. Couple this with the fact that its difficult to see him paying off much if either of your draws hit (especially the straight, but also the flush), and I like a check raise here on the flop or turn also.

Your line is ok, you certainly have odds (implied or direct) to call at each street, but you can't really call any significant (30% pot size) river bet.

On the flop, you are about even and there is $80 of dead money in the middle. You don't want to see a turn card, so check raise all in.

Having got to the turn the way you did, since it was such a nice card for you the same arguments apply: check raise all in here.

The river you played ok, but how big of a bet would you have called?

[bkawz]

Im calling no bet on the river.

[vector]

No bet at all? If he bets $30 into the $170ish pot you fold? So in that case you made him for AA, KK or QQ the whole time (perfectly good read given the preflop action).

But if you never thought there was a chance you were ahead all the more reason to try and get him to fold when you had the opportunity, and the odds, to do so.

[Marnixvdb]

I like how you played the hand.

The raise PF is ok, since you're building a pot and are setting up fold equity on later streets. No way im folding the reraise. Your opponent just defined his hand (very likely AA/KK, possibly QQ), and you know exactly what you need on the flop to beat him / be ahead of him. And you have a hand that flops good enough often enough to call his reraise, given the depth of the stacks.

On the flop, you have a good draw, but have very little fold equity and are still behind (~45%). There is no reason to c/r or lead anywhere and he gives you the right odds to call. Plus he will almost certainly pay off if you hit.

River is obv fold.

Marnix

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
i didn't, and wouldn't. please read the thread, along with my posts.

[/ QUOTE ]

settle down, beavis. i thought that was OP. my bad.

[mason55]

[ QUOTE ]
tripdad u sound like one of those abc whingers at the tables i play at

[/ QUOTE ]

why would you ask for advice and then berate the person that gave you the best advice in the thread. if you want help with your game be prepared to face the reality that you're not nearly as good as you think you are.

any hand you post here will be TORN APART. it's good for you. if you can't handle it, please leave and never come back, because if all you want to do is fight with posters who disagree with you, you'll quickly end up on the ignore list of every good poster here. then you'll be left getting advice from the people who have no idea what they're talking about.

[Marnixvdb]

[ QUOTE ]
why would you ask for advice and then berate the person that gave you the best advice in the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

hi Mason,

I presume you missed my advice?

Marnix

PS I'd rather see a discussion as well in this thread in stead of anything else

[SeattleJake]

You're looking for advice on how to play JTs oop against a pre-flop limp-reraiser. The answer: there isn't a great way to play it, so fold it pre-flop. Here you flopped TP+flush draw, and it's still difficult: check-raise the flop, or lead out on the turn, otherwise you have to make the flush in order to win.

This really is a *big* point that you're missing, and _everyone_ is trying to tell you. The best immediate improvement you can make, isn't to figure out how to play this situation, it's to not put yourself there in the first place.

[bkawz]

If some one told you they had a high pocket pair KK-AA, and that you could play for $15 into a $22 pot already ( Pot would be $52 in total). Are you folding or calling with JTs?

[Marnixvdb]

[ QUOTE ]
You're looking for advice on how to play JTs oop against a pre-flop limp-reraiser. The answer: there isn't a great way to play it, so fold it pre-flop. Here you flopped TP+flush draw, and it's still difficult: check-raise the flop, or lead out on the turn, otherwise you have to make the flush in order to win.

This really is a *big* point that you're missing, and _everyone_ is trying to tell you. The best immediate improvement you can make, isn't to figure out how to play this situation, it's to not put yourself there in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really dont understand why everybody is saying that it is so difficult to play this hand postflop, and that you should thus fold this hand in this situation.

I would say it is EXTREMELY easy to play the hand postflop, since you know exactly what your opponent is holding, and the stacks are deep enough to justify the call.

Marnix

[Bukem_]

I'm pretty happy to play any 2 cards when I know exactly what I'm up against.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty happy to play any 2 cards when I know exactly what I'm up against.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then you don't know how to make money at poker. Just because you can play perfectly after the flop doesn't mean that it makes up for mistakes you have already made preflop.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty happy to play any 2 cards when I know exactly what I'm up against.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then you don't know how to make money at poker. Just because you can play perfectly after the flop doesn't mean that it makes up for mistakes you have already made preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I normally agree with you, this is a gross overstatement. If stacks are deep and the opponents play poorly, you can make a profit with any two. Here's an extreme case:

Johnny Aces is terrible at poker and you are playing him heads up no-limit holdem with $1/$2 blinds. You each have 1 million dollars in front of you. Despite being horrible at poker, he's extremely lucky and gets dealt AA preflop every single hand. With aces, he always raises to $10 (5xBB) preflop, then goes all-in on any flop. Clearly, any two cards are +EV here.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty happy to play any 2 cards when I know exactly what I'm up against.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then you don't know how to make money at poker. Just because you can play perfectly after the flop doesn't mean that it makes up for mistakes you have already made preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I normally agree with you, this is a gross overstatement. If stacks are deep and the opponents play poorly, you can make a profit with any two. Here's an extreme case:

Johnny Aces is terrible at poker and you are playing him heads up no-limit holdem with $1/$2 blinds. You each have 1 million dollars in front of you. Despite being horrible at poker, he's extremely lucky and gets dealt AA preflop every single hand. With aces, he always raises to $10 (5xBB) preflop, then goes all-in on any flop. Clearly, any two cards are +EV here.

[/ QUOTE ]
In your scenario, calling is not making a mistake preflop. However, since he made no mention of stack sizes, his statement showed a clear misunderstanding of pot odds, implied odds, etc.

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty happy to play any 2 cards when I know exactly what I'm up against.

[/ QUOTE ]
Then you don't know how to make money at poker. Just because you can play perfectly after the flop doesn't mean that it makes up for mistakes you have already made preflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I normally agree with you, this is a gross overstatement. If stacks are deep and the opponents play poorly, you can make a profit with any two. Here's an extreme case:

Johnny Aces is terrible at poker and you are playing him heads up no-limit holdem with $1/$2 blinds. You each have 1 million dollars in front of you. Despite being horrible at poker, he's extremely lucky and gets dealt AA preflop every single hand. With aces, he always raises to $10 (5xBB) preflop, then goes all-in on any flop. Clearly, any two cards are +EV here.

[/ QUOTE ]
In your scenario, calling is not making a mistake preflop. However, since he made no mention of stack sizes, his statement showed a clear misunderstanding of pot odds, implied odds, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Touché

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why would you ask for advice and then berate the person that gave you the best advice in the thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

hi Mason,

I presume you missed my advice?

Marnix


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. I stopped reading your original post when you said:

[ QUOTE ]
I like how you played the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's enough to disqualify you for best advice in thread.

For OP, listen to Ghazban. Your raise PF isn't horrible if you think you can stop the action right there against a blind and limper, however, your calling the re-raise is terrible.

On the flop this is a clear check-raise all in or if you're sure he'll re-raise you then put in a weak lead and push. Get your money in on this flop where your a pot and fold equity make you a big favorite.

KoW

[bkawz]

Here is a proper reply to your post, sorry about the previous reply I just didnt like how you gave the advicee.

[ QUOTE ]
he said he would have c/r'd the turn, not the flop. the reason is that you have 17 outs to beat KK, and 20 outs to beat AA. add that to some fold equity, and c/r'ing is not a bad play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didnt think I had much folding equity on the flop because I am a slight LAG, on the turn yes I think I had some folding equity because he only bet $30. But I think I would rather take a cheap card, and go from there. If some one can work this out, Ill be glad to change my mind.

[ QUOTE ]

you keep saying to ignore your preflop play, and everyone is telling you that is where your problem lies. you refuse to accept that, saying "i can easily get away from this hand". well, you didn't get away from it, did you? i'm all for calling raises before the flop with suited connectors, and raising them myself when i have good position. the simple fact is, you [censored] up here by raising with JTs from the blinds when you should have taken the free look.


[/ QUOTE ]

Im not ignoring my preflop play at all, I just dont think that playing weak is the way to play. I had one limper to me, I have an good hand, and often these guys will fold to my raise, if not i can often take it on the flop against 1 player.

Once he limp reraised, he clearly defined his hand, and for a $15 bet for a $37 pot ($52 in total) I think its a good call.

I think your too weak if you think JTs is trash in a 6 handed game.
How would my hand turned out if i did not raise preflop?

[ QUOTE ]

i have a very clear picture of the guy holding KK. he's saying to himself," the LAG in the BB who's been raising 40% of his hands regardles of position needs a lesson. why don't iset him up a couple times so i can limp in from MP with T9s sometimes without having him raise it up. i want to see some cheap flops, dammit!"


[/ QUOTE ]

This really doesnt bother me, I get limp reraised hardly, so when it happens, I have a pretty good idea of what they have, so I can either fold or call.

[ QUOTE ]

you got played, bro. he couldn't push you harder because he couldn't put you on a hand because you've been raising sporadically with trash. (which is also why you can't C/R the turn. you know you'll get called.)

cheers!

[/ QUOTE ]

You say that i got played, then you say he couldnt push me harder because he couldnt put me on a hand. Clearly I am not the one getting played. I have a very good idea of what he has, he has no clue what I have.

[Zag]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I like how you played the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's enough to disqualify you for best advice in thread.


[/ QUOTE ]
This is clearly an overstatement. Against a totally unknown opponent, I would agree with the crowd saying fold to the limp-reraise preflop. Also, if the table was generally loose, I would agree with the sub-crowd saying just check preflop with your drawing hand.

On the (second) other hand, if the table is tight and there was a decent chance that his out-of-position raise would win it preflop, then I wholeheartedly agree with the raise. On the (first) other hand, if the opponent is well-known, then I am OK with the call of the reraise.

The critical factor is that you have to know whether you are calling and counting on bluff equity or implied odds. Note that you have one or the other, but not both. (If the person can lay down KK, you have bluff equity. If he can't, you have implied odds.) Since you have to play these two types of opponents very differently, you have to know which you are up against or you can't afford to make the call.

If the river had brought a K, 8, or spade, and our hero is quite sure that the opponent will call him down with KK or AA, then he easily had implied odds for every play and played it perfectly. On the other hand, if the opponent can make a big laydown, he should have either check-raised the flop (where he isn't all that far behind, anyway, and just a little fold equity is all he needs to make it +EV) or check-raised the turn (though here he needs pretty significant fold equity to be worth it).

The scary thing about the Q on the turn vs. a strong-laydown opponent is that the gutshot that KK just picked up might be enough to convince him to call a check-raise. However, the opponent also bet way too small, such that our hero has simple pots odds to call, with, at worst, 13 clean outs (vs. KK) and maybe 5 more (vs. AA).

Anyway, my point is that the play on every round was significantly player-dependant, and to make the sort of sweeping generalizations like the one I quoted is to restrict your play unprofitably.

[Marnixvdb]

[ QUOTE ]
Get your money in on this flop where your a pot and fold equity make you a big favorite.

KoW

[/ QUOTE ]

That qualifies your post as the worst advice in the thread. You have ~45% pot odds, and hardly any fold equity. G/L putting your stack in on unfavourable coin flips.

Maybe next time you should try not to dismiss anyone's post on preconceived ideas.

Marnix

[Marnixvdb]

TY for your post Zag, finally some good reasoning /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I agree with you, that the play is player-dependant, in the sense that you need to know if you have bluff equity of implied odds for the play. From what I know of the party $400 NL 6max tables, is that the players are generally weak/tight, and tend to overplay their hands postflop. So mostly you raise hands like this for bluff equity, but faced a limp/reraise you call for implied odds.

Villain in this hand played his hand weak on turn and river. But I dont think he'd have layed it down. I hardly ever see people who limp/reraise their AA/KK laying it down anymore, to whatever action, if the pot is HU. Therefore, I think Hero's line is the best one you could take.

Marnix

EDIT: corrected preflop into postflop where i meant to say the latter

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Get your money in on this flop where your a pot and fold equity make you a big favorite.

KoW

[/ QUOTE ]

That qualifies your post as the worst advice in the thread. You have ~45% pot odds, and hardly any fold equity. G/L putting your stack in on unfavourable coin flips.

Maybe next time you should try not to dismiss anyone's post on preconceived ideas.

Marnix

[/ QUOTE ]

If villain doesn't have a spade you've got 51% "pot odds" (read: pot equity) and if he does have a spade you've got 46% pot equity.

You say "hardly" any fold equity...Well in the worst case scenario when Villain does have a spade, you only need Villain to lay this one down a mere 1 time in 25 to make it a BREAK EVEN play. Any more than that is gravy. If villain has no spade, any % that Villain folds is just adding to our bottom line.

The problem with calling the PF re-raise (besides being a huge dog preflop) is that you're out of position making your drawing hand (JTs is basically the definition of drawing hand) much harder to play correctly. Check-call / check-call is a very poor line to take imo.

This is laughable:

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe next time you should try not to dismiss anyone's post on preconceived ideas.

[/ QUOTE ]

KoW

[bkawz]

Thank you Zag, very nice post.
I didnt have vey much folding equity, as I had been stealing alot of pots, and I thought he would call an allin on the flop. On the turn im not too sure if he would call an allin, but I took a cheap card instead. If I hit a card I think he was calling a large bet because he couldnt lay it down to a 'possible bluff' from a LAG opponent

[Triumph36]

There is no reason to raise here pre-flop. You are clearly not raising on the strength of your hand, you are raising because there's a limper to you. You may as well have raised with 8 3 offsuit. It sounds like you do this a lot, so that's why you got limp-reraised. I usually manage to do this to the donks who consistently raise out of the BB.

Then when you get the perfect flop, you're unwilling to throw your stack in there. You misplayed it on every street: when you were weak, you raised, when you were strong, you called, and you lost a significant portion of your stack trying to draw.

And you don't want your opponent to fold. If you are not willing to put your stack in when you get a great flop like this, you should never have called the re-raise. Playing draw+pair from out of position means: check-raise all in, otherwise your opponent controls the size of the pot and gets away easily when you hit.

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no reason to raise here. You are clearly not raising on the strength of your hand, you are raising because there's a limper to you. You may as well have raised with 8 3 offsuit. It sounds like you do this a lot, so that's why you got limp-reraised. I usually manage to do this to the donks who consistently raise out of the BB.

Then when you get the perfect flop, you're unwilling to throw your stack in there. You misplayed it on every street: when you were weak, you raised, when you were strong, you called, and you lost a significant portion of your stack trying to draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post.

[Marnixvdb]

Hey KowCiller

You ever tried to bluff a limp/reraiser out of a pot?

I think hardly any good LAG wants his stack in on a break even play, with given stack depths. I wouldnt want it, because it will affect my game and my table-image in a negative way.

The point is: I dont want me to tilt. I want him to tilt.

What good is shoving into a fairly certain break-even play, when I could have called for $30 and stacked him on a favourable turn, or river, if I get the odds to call the turn. Latter option sounds much more +EV to me.

So for tilt-equity purposes check/calling in this situation is a very good idea. O yeah, for pot odds and implied odds to.

Marnix

[bkawz]

Alot of difference raising with 83o and JTs.


If im putting my stack in on that flop i want a fold against a over pair. Im either cut even or behind not ahead, so I dont know where you got that from. Theres $52 in pot and we have over $300 stacks.

[Marnixvdb]

[ QUOTE ]
There is no reason to raise here pre-flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

good reasons to raise PF:
1) fold equity
2) information
3) hiding your hand
4) pot building
5) table image

If you check, the pot is 2.5bb on the flop. Wow what a pot! And what does the limper have? We have no clue. The information is much cheaper preflop than postflop. That already, is a very good reason to raise it PF.

[ QUOTE ]
You may as well have raised with 8 3 offsuit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Think of the strong, almost certain winner hands JTs can make. And think of those that 83o can make. Do you see the difference?

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
Think of the strong, almost certain winner hands JTs can make. And think of those that 83o can make. Do you see the difference?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sklansky sees the difference, and advocates bluff raising out of the BB with trash rather than cards that may already have decent pot equity preflop.

2+2 Magazine - Bluff raising from BB (http://www.twoplustwo.com/magazine/current/sklansky0505.html)

[ QUOTE ]
So should we pick from among the better of these hands to make our occasional bluff? Those who say yes are forgetting that by knuckling they get to see the flop, and they have a positive EV from that point. The actual value of the bluff raise is not simply its EV, but rather its EV as compared to the alternative of knuckling. That means it should be done with your complete trash: queen-deuce, nine-trey; seven-deuce.

[/ QUOTE ]

KoW

[bkawz]

The article has quite a few differences
This is a 6max table, not a full ring.
Its not getting folded 70% of the time with 3-5 limpers.
Im not getting reraised much at all maybe 5-10% of the time
Im not bluffing.
I have a LAG image and I am raising alot so Im getting called alot, I would rather have JTs than 83o.
If you think raising JTs against 1 limper and a SB is a total bluff, ur way too weak.

[Triumph36]

You are bluffing. You're raising JTs out of position, and you will have a difficult time playing your draw if both people call. Do people really limp in offsuited small cards from EP? By raising, you have defined no one's hand except your own. The hands that call you are probably dominating you, and you fold out a lot of the hands you dominate. Again, if you raise here, you may as well raise with trash hands too. And if you raise here often, you will get callers, and you'll have to play the hand out of position. What do you do when you bet out a flop you miss, and EP calls? You have no idea how to proceed from there. Building a pot from out of position with a drawing hand is one of the biggest mistakes an NL player can make.

There is no reason to raise here. I raise suited connectors all the time in 5max, but I make sure to buy or have the button when I do it. JT played for top-pair value will only win you a small pot, so it's really a suited connector at this point.

[Marnixvdb]

from the Sklanksy article:

"Assume you are in the big blind in a game where everyone has at least fifty times the blind as their stack. It may be a tournament but it doesn't really matter. There are no live ones in the game"

In this game there are obviously live ones. Also, the article is talking about big raises from the BB (~10BB) and treats full ring game situation with 3-5 limpers. It also notes: "Sometimes the pot becomes heads up which is okay."

I agree with sklanksy's analysis, but I cannot understand how you can compare the situation in his article with the situation in OP, as both situations are fundamentally different.

Marnix

[bkawz]

Bluffing is when u bet and have no chance to win the pot if called and no more cards to come. I hardly see how you can compare my raise to bluffing. I have not defined my hand at all, I raise alot of the time, so you can tell what i have? I gain more information from them than they do from me. I dont see how its the same as raising with trash.

There is alot of reasons to raise here like marnix said

[Marnixvdb]

[ QUOTE ]
By raising, you have defined no one's hand except your own. The hands that call you are probably dominating you, and you fold out a lot of the hands you dominate. Again, if you raise here, you may as well raise with trash hands too.

There is no reason to raise here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ive already given 5 good reasons why you could raise. And I disagree strongly that you have defined only you own hand. If you do this with a wide range of hands, that's exactly what your opponent must put you on: a wide range of hands.

about the information on his hand:

a limp by villain says much less than a limp/call, limp/fold or limp/reraise

on the flop, if you get raised or called by a hand that limped, you cant really define it. If you get raised or called by a hand that limp/called, you already get some idea of what kind of hand he has, and what he might have made on the flop / be drawing to. And thus: what your pot equity / fold equity is by approximation.

You can play top pair for a small pot as you say, but it's more interesting to pick up a lot of pots uncontested on bluffs. Flopping top pair with this hand gives you added fold equity, since it decreases the chance your opponent flopped to pair as well. You are not looking to play a big pot with one pair. You just want him to be call/folding to you all the time. And if he finally does have a hand, your hand has the potential to be even stronger, while he will realise that too late (on the expensive streets). You may even have fold equity on the flop versus hands that dominate you.

Of course game conditions have to be right to be able to raise hands like TJs from the BB like this, as the play is most effective in weak/tight games. In my experience though, party $400 6 max games are usually weak-tight, so I see no problem at all to raise it here.

Marnix

[Ghazban]

I don't mean to sound harsh, but the raise is bad if you plan on calling the reraise and then playing out the hand as you did. You got one of the best flops you could hope for versus an overpair and did nothing but check and call the whole way. I'd like your play a lot better if you'd shown some aggression and given the villain an opportunity to fold his kings. If this is SOP for you postflop, you should've folded preflop.

[Zag]

[ QUOTE ]
If villain doesn't have a spade you've got 51% "pot odds" (read: pot equity) and if he does have a spade you've got 46% pot equity.
KoW

[/ QUOTE ]
Hi KoW,
This disagrees with what I thought I knew, and you said it with such confidence that you sent me to TwoDimes. I had thought that pair and flush draw was a slight dog to overpair. You are, in fact, correct, and it is interesting why: It is the 9 that makes the difference! The backdoor straight draw is enough to bump the coin flip in favor of our hero.

Here is the actual hand, assuming Ah Ac for the opponent. Our hero has 52.5% pot equity. http://twodimes.net/h/?z=932501

Even against kings (which hurts his backdoor straight slightly) hero is a tiny favorite at 51% equity, http://twodimes.net/h/?z=932311

If I only change the 9s to be a 6s, removing the backdoor straight possibility, then our hero's equity drops to 49.8% (against either aces or kings), or as close to a perfect coin flip as you are likely to see. http://twodimes.net/h/?z=932506

However, as you pointed out, if the villain has a single spade, the loss of the one out, plus the possibility of a redraw (if spades come runner-runner) once again makes our hero a slight dog at 47.3% or 46% http://twodimes.net/h/?z=932524 http://twodimes.net/h/?z=932525

By the way, if anyone is totally bored with the picayune analysis involving single digits of percent equity, to you I say, "Hah hah! I don't care! I do it for me. I've learned something today, and that makes me happy!"

[Marnixvdb]

hi Zag,

with pokerstove (http://www.pokerstove.com) you can find out that you are app. 49% if your opponent's hand range is AA-QQ and he is just as likely to hold any of those three (which he isnt). It is indeed the backdoor draw that gives you some extra %s.

To Ghazban:
It only occasionally happens that you get limp/reraised, so you cant really judge the value of the raise only through how this specific situation played out. If villain limp/reraises often, or is able two fold his overpair to a big raise, you should c/r or lead/reraise the flop. But I dont think that those two conditions often apply in this game. So why do you think that check and see if he (weak opponent) might give you odds to call for your outs is worse than pushing a very likely break-even play? I just dont see him folding. I have often enough tried to bluff limp/reraisers out on the right scarecards, or semi-bluff them out with strong draws. I've had about just as much succes as I'd have trying to walk through a wall.

Marnix

[fathertime]

KoW--

thanks for this. This is a part of my game that needs work--calculating equity and fequity on the fly. Any suggestions for improving?

[KowCiller]

fathertime-

I was done with this thread, but I like trying to help others out since usually I'm the one who needs the assistance!

So as far as those numbers are concerned, I gathered them from a site you might see mentioned a lot: Two Dimes (http://www.twodimes.net/poker)

Basically by plugging in the board and the two hands, you can figure out the percentage to win, which in turn can be described as how much of the pot is "theirs" in the long haul (by having the best hand as showdown).

In the worst case scenario, Hero has 46% equity (assuming KK/AA and one is a spade). As you can guess, in a heads up situation only having 46% equity in the hand will cause us to lose over time (ignoring dead money). So in order to offset this, we need to force villain to fold 4% of the time in order to break even (4% fequity + 46% pequity = 50/50 proposition). If villain folds any more than that, it's $$ in our pocket over the long haul (again, discounting dead money).

As far as making these calculations on the fly, it's somewhat an exercise of memory and counting outs (and converting to %) to know what your equity is...such as knowing that pair + flush draw is about 50/50 vs. a bigger pair, etc. The more you read and respond to posts, the more you'll pick up common situations naturally. It's also fun to plug some trouble hands into two dimes to figure out where you stood while reviewing your hand histories.

The thing that I think most people should see from this thread is why it's so awful to go into call-down mode with this hand (with no read, against a typical opponent). You would like to take this pot down on the flop, but if he calls that's ok too as in many cases you'll be a favorite (with 2 cards to come) or making a slightly +EV move based on the money already in the pot. By calling down, you never give Villain a chance to fold, which is where you really make the money in this situation.

Also note that nobody considers that Villain might be getting cute with a hand such as AK in this spot where our pot equity is even greater. Even if villain has AsKs, we're still better than 50/50 in pot equity and our fold equity is also much higher.

Ok enough rambling...

KoW

[Nikanoru]

[ QUOTE ]
You say "hardly" any fold equity...Well in the worst case scenario when Villain does have a spade, you only need Villain to lay this one down a mere 1 time in 25 to make it a BREAK EVEN play. Any more than that is gravy. If villain has no spade, any % that Villain folds is just adding to our bottom line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Kow,

How'd you come up with the 1 in 25 figure?

[fathertime]

thanks.

I guess Fimbul's general rule of getting aggressive when heads up and with 10+ outs on the flop pretty much covers most situations.

[Triumph36]

Okay, let's go over those 5 reasons then.

1: Fold Equity. You have this with any two cards, so this is meaningless.

2: Information. You don't get any information. All the opponent has is a hand that won't fold. That probably means it is better than your hand, but if Villain does this often, the opponent's limp/call means nothing. All you have done is show a stronger hand than you actually have, but if you do it habitually, an opponent will think nothing of your raise, and so you cannot represent the big pair you'd like to. If you raise from the BB often, you're not getting an opponent to fold TPTK or TPGK without a huge move on the turn/river here. You're setting yourself up to bluff from out of position.

3: Hiding your hand. EP has shown no strength, so there is no reason to hide your hand. "Hiding your hand" from out of position is silly, because your opponent is unlikely to pay you off if you hit.

4: Pot building. This is the most foolish reason of all. You are building a pot from out of position with a drawing hand. This is a huge leak in no-limit poker. You do not want to be doing this, because the opponent can easily give you improper odds to draw if he also hits, and the only way he pays you off is if he hits.

5: Table image. Who cares? Raising out of the blinds is a terrible image to have because it leads to situations like this. People wait to limp-reraise and you end up losing half or all of your stack that you gained by making silly plays like this one.

Raising once in a while with a hand like JTs is fine if you have four limpers to you and you think you can get some of them out. Raising out of the blinds consistently is a terrible move, ESPECIALLY if you are willing to call limp-reraises. I've limp-reraised from the button, from the SB, from MP against players like this, with hands like A9, QQ, AJ, and taken fairly large pots even when I missed. If you're going to raise with mediocre hands from the BB, at least have the intelligence to fold them to limp-reraises.

[KowCiller]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You say "hardly" any fold equity...Well in the worst case scenario when Villain does have a spade, you only need Villain to lay this one down a mere 1 time in 25 to make it a BREAK EVEN play. Any more than that is gravy. If villain has no spade, any % that Villain folds is just adding to our bottom line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Kow,

How'd you come up with the 1 in 25 figure?

[/ QUOTE ]

See my response to fathertime for details... (hint, 1/25 = 4%)

Edit: it's actually a bit less than that, but I'm not counting dead money here...

KoW

[fathertime]

If you can't figure it out, pm me and I'll tell you. I was pretty dense on this one for a while.

[kurto]

"I really dont think there is a big problem in this hand" I get the impression you're the minority with this line. I love 10Js... I don't like it in early position, I especially don't like it after I've been reraised.


"i can get away very easy from this hand." you lost 25BB on this hand.... I know there are some deep stacks here, but that still seems pricy for a hand that you know you're a big underdog and you could be sucked into playing a draw.

[Marnixvdb]

hi KowCiller,

the issue in this thread has been debated enough and I can see you are done with it, but im still interested how you would want to apply Sklansky's analysis in this situation. Cause I have a hard time finding similarties between Sklansky's situation and OP's situation.

thx

marnix

[Marnixvdb]

triumph,

The hiding your hand reason lies in raising with a lot of hands that can make strong hands, anytime, anywhere. Make them go crazy postflop. Make them fold to much. Make them call in the wrong spots. Be aggressive. Be in control. It's a weak game, not a Loose Passive game. In a Loose Passive game, the raise doesnt make much sense because you should be betting/raising for value mainly. In a Weak Tight game, and believe me, most $400 games on party are Weak Tight, the raise makes a lot of sense for the reasons I stated. If you dont see why, fine. You'll have the good LAG's running over you.

The fact that YOU are able to limp/reraise with a wider variety of hands from the button doenst mean the avg opponent will do that too. Most people are too afraid of that high variance play.

[ QUOTE ]
Raising once in a while with a hand like JTs is fine if you have four limpers to you and you think you can get some of them out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you even read Sklansky's article that KowCiller posted?

[Lawrence Ng]

Wow, talk about deep stacks..

Lawrence

[Triumph36]

I don't play Party 400 but this is fundamentally bad poker. Why you think you are incapable of playing LAG and running over the game without raising from the blinds is strange. I raise a huge range of hands from LP in short-handed games, from small suited connectors to ace-suited to small pairs to big pairs. I rarely raise out of the blinds. Thinking players would notice this, but if thinking players noticed me raising out of the blinds a lot, they'd easily trap me.

The good LAGs will run over you if you raise drawing hands from out of position too. IT IS A DRAWING HAND OUT OF POSITION. You are trying to represent a hand you do not in fact have, and if you do it often, people will catch on. You can still EASILY control a weak-tight game by passing up on VERY marginal plays like raising out of the blinds with what are effectively suited connectors. Anyone trying to exert that much control over the game will be trapped. Bad players love to try to trap me by min-check-raising or min-raising, but I get out 90% of the time when I face one of those.

Sklansky is clearly talking about tournament play here, even though he claims he is not. Unless you are playing against a lot of the same players every day, mixing your game up this much is meaningless, and his assumption that a player will re-raise "most of the other 30% of the time" is an absurd one; he is CLEARLY talking about tournament play here. So, no, I didn't read the article at first, because I was told it doesn't apply. And those people were right.

[Marnixvdb]

[ QUOTE ]
So, no, I didn't read the article at first, because I was told it doesn't apply. And those people were right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I tought it was me who said that, so thx. It did apply though to the situation you described: raising TJs after a bunch of limpers.

If you think Sklansky's analysis only applies to tournaments, you are mistaken. The situation he describes (stacks &gt; 50bb) you will only find at the beginning of tournaments. I have seen the big raise (~10BB) bluff from the BB with trash been applied succesfully at party and pokerstars 2/4 cash games.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't play Party 400 but this is fundamentally bad poker. Why you think you are incapable of playing LAG and running over the game without raising from the blinds is strange.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont think I said that. What I meant to say was that if you dont see that good LAG's would do that often, you arent going to put them on those hands -&gt; thus have them run over you. Of course you can play a good game without raising those hands from the BB. But saying that it is fundamental bad poker to do raise them, is ill-informed IMHO.