My first $33 and a tough decision early [Archive]

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1C5

05-01-2005, 10:36 AM

Had a terrible day at the tables so what better to lose more money than move up in limits. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

3 parts to this question. 1. My call...

2. My min raise.

3. Now what?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t15 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t960)
BB (t800)
UTG (t785)
UTG+1 (t740)
MP1 (t2070)
MP2 (t585)
MP3 (t775)
Hero (t775)
Button (t510)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
5 folds, Hero calls t15, 1 fold, SB raises to t60, 1 fold, Hero calls t45.

Flop: (t135) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets t100, Hero raises to t200, SB raises to t900 (All-In), Hero ?

ripped

05-01-2005, 10:44 AM

I dont like the call for 4x the bb. Treat TT as you would 66 because if this situation does happen you are going to throw around lots of chips too early in the tournament.

john_

05-01-2005, 10:47 AM

1. I think your call here is ok.
2. I don't really like this mini-raise unless you're going to immediately know to fold to their all in.
3. Refer to 2.

An additional question...why move up in limit when you've had a terrible downswing? You quite possibly could be tilted and it sounds like you could not survive a negative variance swing at a higher level.

Big Limpin'

05-01-2005, 11:33 AM

I'd be quite sure SB has bigger PP than you. Blinds that can see flop for free/cheap, but chose to pop it preflop...id say this is AA/KK (maybe QQ) more often than not.

He continues the flop, you raise. Put yourself in his shoes. What hands would he push with?

I suppose, in this situation, you have T250 left if you bail, and you have >T1000 if you win. Thats real juicy, but i'd honestly say that you are behind more than 3/4 of the time. And have an 8% chance of drawing out.

I think fold is best.

Why minraise half your stack?

adanthar

05-01-2005, 11:41 AM

I'd raise PF. Open limping UTG is one thing but in the cutoff, you should be raising for value. Having limped, the PF call is fine.

Instead of raising the flop, in this situation, I call planning to fold any turn if he bets again. If he has six outs and just happens to hit, good for him.

hummusx

05-01-2005, 12:46 PM

I don't entirely agree with the rest of the responses here.

Limp/raise, I go both ways here. Calling the raise is fine.

I don't like the min-raise on the flop, unless your plan was to pop him and the be done with the hand.

As far as people point out that he almost certainly has you beat, I'm not sure this is true. People will make this move with A9, or even any two overcards. I've also seen people do this with a lower pair because they think you are trying to steal a pot and they probably have you beat. At the 33s, I wouldn't be surprised if you are ahead here.

Nottom

05-01-2005, 01:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I dont like the call for 4x the bb. Treat TT as you would 66 because if this situation does happen you are going to throw around lots of chips too early in the tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd call with 66 too.

Nottom

05-01-2005, 01:28 PM

1) Preflop call is fine IMO
2) I'd make it a bit more, maybe 250.
3) I'd curse about it and fold.

Edit - i didn't notice that you open-limper form the CO. This is an easy raise PF.

tjh

05-01-2005, 01:57 PM

I posted a similar question last night.

JJ SNG question (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2286826&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&vc=1)

Difference was I had Pocket JJ's I had raised preflop and I bet the flop he reraised and I folded. The advice I got was that I should push.

The differences may be significant.

I was raising, in your case he was raising. How does the gap principal work there? You need a better hand to call a raise than to make a raise. Do we assume that other players follow that advice ?

What I took away from my post is that pushing with overpair is alright.

I got no support for folding.

Slightly different circumstances but the basics are similar.

--
tjh

Scuba Chuck

05-01-2005, 02:25 PM

A) I'm actually happy there is a raiser. Makes the pot bigger for you.

B) More often than not, you are ahead here on the flop.

C) The danger here is that you did not reraise PF (to see where you stand) IMO, this danger is minimal here.

tech

05-01-2005, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
B) More often than not, you are ahead here on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This needs clarification. Yes, across the range of all possible flops against one opponent, hero is probably ahead the majority of the time. However, in this specific case, you have a preflop raiser who bets, is raised, and comes over the top with an all-in reraise. I do not think that under those circumstances hero is ahead more often than not (unless you know the villain here to be a maniac).

Nottom

05-01-2005, 03:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I posted a similar question last night.

JJ SNG question (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2286826&page=&view=&sb=5& o=&vc=1)

Difference was I had Pocket JJ's I had raised preflop and I bet the flop he reraised and I folded. The advice I got was that I should push.

The differences may be significant.

I was raising, in your case he was raising. How does the gap principal work there? You need a better hand to call a raise than to make a raise. Do we assume that other players follow that advice ?

What I took away from my post is that pushing with overpair is alright.

I got no support for folding.

Slightly different circumstances but the basics are similar.

--
tjh

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the differences are quite significant. The fact that he is calling a re-re-raise all-in as opposed to making that raise is key.

Bigwig

05-01-2005, 03:33 PM

You must raise this preflop from the CO when you're entering the pot. You likely have the best hand, and must define it. By open limping, then calling a raise from the blinds, you're faced with two problems:

1) You don't know with any measurable degree of certainty whether you're ahead or behind.

2) You've lost control of the aggression.

If the SB has a large pocket pair, and you open raise, he'll likely pop you back. Now, your hand would be better defined, and you could probably fold at this point in the tourney, unless you were getting sufficient pot odds to call for set value. By open raising, you would've lost less than you did limping.

Newt_Buggs

05-01-2005, 03:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
B) More often than not, you are ahead here on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This needs clarification. Yes, across the range of all possible flops against one opponent, hero is probably ahead the majority of the time. However, in this specific case, you have a preflop raiser who bets, is raised, and comes over the top with an all-in reraise. I do not think that under those circumstances hero is ahead more often than not (unless you know the villain here to be a maniac).

[/ QUOTE ]

thank you, this needed to be said. Come on guys, he raised from the SB, the most risky place, bet out on a rag flop, then came over the top. This screams overpocket, probably something like QQ that is still vulnerable that he is trying to protect. Yes, he could be a maniac with AK, or even A5, but chances are he got delt a better hand and is representing. Also, if although you have built up the pot, if you call and guessed wrong, you are only 10%, if you call and guess right he is probably 24%. Not huge, but something else to consider