is this flop play correct?

[MattC]

all are either semi loose passive or loose passive, late ep is loose aggressive.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.

edit: took out turn and river.

[Argus]

I like the flop line - I'd guess you have six clean outs, and maybe you can count the queens for another half an out each. It's worth a raise, especially if you think you can take a free card on the turn.

IF your question is only about the flop, don't include action after the flop - people might think the ten is always coming so you have to raise.

[MattC]

my main goal here was to maximuze my chances to win the hand by isolating the flop bettor.

[wrto4556]

The pot's not big enough. I'd probably fold.

[KDawgCometh]

in a word. no. I'd call and get some callers in so I can add extra $$$ incase a Jack hits. You really aren't cleaning up that many outs by raising since you have bottom pair on an action flop. even with the 10 hitting I'd be very wary about raising since it wouldn't be unreasonble for someone to limp in with QJ. In which you're drawing to four outs. I say keep the people in and look to just call the river with trips UI. Since you did improve to a full house then raising is a must

[wrto4556]

Call getting 6-1 with people to act behind you?

Me not like much.

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot's not big enough. I'd probably fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like folding here as by calling you can induce players who have checked to call. even if you get a couple you have added dea money and added extra implied odds if you hit broadway

[wrto4556]

You can also get raised.

[KDawgCometh]

its about the implied odds of hitting your draw by adding extra $$ in there. plus getting 6-1 on your bottom pair you have some extra odds for other outs

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
You can also get raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

then you fold if its two back to you

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can also get raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

then you fold if its two back to you

[/ QUOTE ]

And call if it's one... /images/graemlins/frown.gif Getting worse odds than before. We don't have very many outs. A Q wont do us much good, 2 tens and 4 jacks....at *best* 7 outs in a 6sb pot.

[MattC]

is it unreasonable considering my read on the flop bettor is loose aggressive that he might be bluffing? or maybe doesnt really have that much. maybe something as bad as my hand?

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
is it unreasonable considering my read on the flop bettor is loose aggressive that he might be bluffing? or maybe doesnt really have that much. maybe something as bad as my hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe, but this is an action flop and folding has to be considered. that being said, I'm just calling here and not raising

[KDawgCometh]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You can also get raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

then you fold if its two back to you

[/ QUOTE ]

And call if it's one... /images/graemlins/frown.gif Getting worse odds than before. We don't have very many outs. A Q wont do us much good, 2 tens and 4 jacks....at *best* 7 outs in a 6sb pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

all depends on where the raise comes from. If we have some extra calls in there then we can definetly call the riase. I want to allow this pot to get as big as possible

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
is it unreasonable considering my read on the flop bettor is loose aggressive that he might be bluffing? or maybe doesnt really have that much. maybe something as bad as my hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

He could be betting KQ or something. Maybe JT. But you still have people to act behind you. There isn't much that he's betting that you beat, imo.

[MattC]

my thinking as i played this hand was that this was the type of hand where i want to maximize my chances of winning the hand by knocking out all the gutshots and/or middle pairs or at least give them bad odds to call even if i do not have the best hand currently.

the type of hand where a raise is +ev but a call isnt.

[Argus]

I agree that calling is the worst - I raise or fold here. There is no way your pot odds justify a call - my argument for raising is based on the passivity of the table and the likelihood of a cheap card. Putting in 2SB to see two cards with 6 outs is still a close call in my opinion, especially considering someone could indeed have flopped broadway. A fold isn't out of line.

[imported_leader]

[ QUOTE ]
The pot's not big enough. I'd probably fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

That and the fact that all your outs are dirty makes this one a fold. Even if you hit your J, you'll split the pot a fair amount of the time.

[MattC]

so you guys dont think that the cost of 1 sb isnt worth the increased chances i have of winning this hand if i knock everyone else out of the hand?

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
my thinking as i played this hand was that this was the type of hand where i want to maximize my chances of winning the hand by knocking out all the gutshots and/or middle pairs or at least give them bad odds to call even if i do not have the best hand currently.

the type of hand where a raise is +ev but a call isnt.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising to clean up outs is saved for big pots.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree that calling is the worst - I raise or fold here. There is no way your pot odds justify a call - my argument for raising is based on the passivity of the table and the likelihood of a cheap card. Putting in 2SB to see two cards with 6 outs is still a close call in my opinion, especially considering someone could indeed have flopped broadway. A fold isn't out of line.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is close, but I don't think you get the free card enough. Plus, it sucks getting 3-bet on this board as you are most likely drawing to 3-4 outs...and sometimes it splits.




Make the pot raised preflop and I raise this flop every time.

JMO

[Argus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I agree that calling is the worst - I raise or fold here. There is no way your pot odds justify a call - my argument for raising is based on the passivity of the table and the likelihood of a cheap card. Putting in 2SB to see two cards with 6 outs is still a close call in my opinion, especially considering someone could indeed have flopped broadway. A fold isn't out of line.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is close, but I don't think you get the free card enough. Plus, it sucks getting 3-bet on this board as you are most likely drawing to 3-4 outs...and sometimes it splits.




Make the pot raised preflop and I raise this flop every time.

JMO

[/ QUOTE ]

Thinking about it I think your line is better. How often do you raise this preflop? I do it a lot of the time when the players are loose-passive as described. I'd like to buy the button and take some initiative. You have to raise - they're s00ted.

[wrto4556]

I thought about the raise preflop but got to into the flop play. Normally, I wouldn't...but since posting here, I think it has +EV. We could buy the button and I remember reading something about QTs have neutral EV preflop so raising is OK.

The preflop raise is probably standard.