Another river fold

[Azhrarn]

Looser than average table. SB is loose and passive and, as far as I can tell, very straightforward. CO is very loose and somewhat tricky.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB folds, UTG folds, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

I was surprised by the 3-bet, and I was pretty sure it meant top pair good kicker or better.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls, CO calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero folds, CO folds.

Final Pot: 14.50 BB

Bleh?

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

I really don't like the river fold. You're definitely good often enough to call here and see TP worse kick or busted /images/graemlins/diamond.gif/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

-Craig

[wrto4556]

I doubt it's a busted flush draw from the read given. But it could very well be K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

I'd call.

[istewart]

It would be hard for him to have K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, lol.

[Barry]

Unless he's a complete rock, I'm calling the river. At least 8% of the time you're hand has to be good. In fact, I might seriously consider raising the turn.

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
It would be hard for him to have K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've said it before, ill say it again. PP's fixed!

Fine Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Argus]

[ QUOTE ]
I was surprised by the 3-bet, and I was pretty sure it meant top pair good kicker or better.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
River: (13.50 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero folds

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/confused.gif

I guess it isn't so bad, but when you say top pair good kicker or better, remember that you beat some hands in that range. Yes T9 makes a straight, but I don't know that a loose passive 3-bets that on the flop. The flush never came in so I think you're good more than 1 time in 14 here. Shed a little tear and call.

Edit: man you guys are fast. There were no replies when I drafted this.

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would be hard for him to have K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've said it before, ill say it again. PP's fixed!

Fine Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's equally as likely as k /images/graemlins/diamond.gif j /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Azhrarn]

I probably should have put in some river thoughts. Does a loose passive bet top pair into two people on this board on the river? It's possible, but I felt the bet greatly reduced his chances of just having a pair.

Also, there's a guy behind me I have to beat as well.

[Barry]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It would be hard for him to have K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've said it before, ill say it again. PP's fixed!

Fine Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's equally as likely as k /images/graemlins/diamond.gif j /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

OK how about T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

[Azhrarn]

[ QUOTE ]
OK how about T 9

[/ QUOTE ]

You realize that beats me right?

[SmileyEH]

This is a terribly inconsistent line.

-SmileyEH

[Barry]

I was just trying to get all the speculation right of "a" possible hand. Of course it beats you, but I still think you're good 8% of the time.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
I probably should have put in some river thoughts. Does a loose passive bet top pair into two people on this board on the river? It's possible, but I felt the bet greatly reduced his chances of just having a pair.

Also, there's a guy behind me I have to beat as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have called, but I like your reasoning here.

[Azhrarn]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a terribly inconsistent line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I know, and that's probably why I feel crappy about the hand. When I called the turn, I was planning to show down. But three things happened after my turn call. The CO called, a bad river card fell, and the passive SB bet out again.

SB had been playing passive enough that I considered folding the turn, but I decided I was good often enough to call. But then the above three things caused me to revise my chances of winning the pot.

[Argus]

[ QUOTE ]
I probably should have put in some river thoughts. Does a loose passive bet top pair into two people on this board on the river? It's possible, but I felt the bet greatly reduced his chances of just having a pair.

Also, there's a guy behind me I have to beat as well.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're beating the guy behind you unless he rivered a ridiculous two pair. I've seen loose passives bet worse holdings - it depends on how this particular one plays. Sometimes they get an idea in their head like, "He raised preflop so his overcards missed and I have a pair of jacks so let's pump it!" I think this happens often enough to make calling worthwhile in a pot this size.

[Azhrarn]

[ QUOTE ]
You're beating the guy behind you unless he rivered a ridiculous two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he's holding a six or ten he rivered a straight, as well as the silly two pair chance.

[ QUOTE ]
I've seen loose passives bet worse holdings - it depends on how this particular one plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, so have I, and if it were heads-up against the SB, I would've made the crying call. But the CO's presence made me think the call wasn't worthwhile.

[Barry]

[ QUOTE ]
Does a loose passive bet top pair into two people on this board on the river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes

[ QUOTE ]
Also, there's a guy behind me I have to beat as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you worried about him; he's only called all the way. He's on a flush draw.

[Argus]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, so have I, and if it were heads-up against the SB, I would've made the crying call. But the CO's presence made me think the call wasn't worthwhile.

[/ QUOTE ]
Your call will probably make CO think it isn't worth a call. If he were ahead of you no way would I overcall, but I think the only way he rivered a straight is with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif or 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.

[Azhrarn]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you worried about him; he's only called all the way. He's on a flush draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure he was on a flush draw, but I do think I was ahead of him on the turn. He's loose enough to call with any pair or a gutshot draw as well as the flush draw. But the river made two one-card straights possible. He's going to hit that some of the time, as well as the occasional two pair. Also, the SB showed more strength by betting into two people on that board than if we were heads-up. Well, or ignorance...

[Piiop]

I think that if your read is solid, your play is fine.

[Azhrarn]

[ QUOTE ]
Your call will probably make CO think it isn't worth a call. If he were ahead of you no way would I overcall, but I think the only way he rivered a straight is with Td or 6d.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's very loose pre-flop. 76 and T9 would both flop OESDs, and they are definitely within his coldcalling range, suited and offsuit. Also, I don't think he would fold a pair on the flop, so add 65, T8, and JT.

Anyway, there's no way he folds a better hand than mine on the river, and he would call with quite a few worse ones.

[imported_leader]

[ QUOTE ]
Unless he's a complete rock, I'm calling the river. At least 8% of the time you're hand has to be good. In fact, I might seriously consider raising the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly.

[Argus]

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway, there's no way he folds a better hand than mine on the river, and he would call with quite a few worse ones.

[/ QUOTE ]
This only makes a call more valuable; you're folding if he raises. I know you want this fold to be good, and in a small pot it would be. But SB could really be donking around; what if he has K8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. That's consistent with his play the whole way, and you beat that. I just am not convinced that you are beat as often as pot odds indicate calling.

[Azhrarn]

I realize I'm arguing strenuously for a fold here, but honestly, I'm uncertain if that is the correct play or not. It's why I posted the hand. I'm just trying to make the best case for it that I can, and I do think there are a lot of aspects of the hand to consider.

[Azhrarn]

[ QUOTE ]
In fact, I might seriously consider raising the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

In retrospect, I really wish I had. I could have easily folded to a 3-bet, and it would have put extra pressure on the CO. I was so focused on the SB, I didn't pay much attention to the CO until the river, which was a mistake considering how many draws were on the board.

[NickRegino]

Barry is right

[Piiop]

I think that this question is very read-dependant and a lot of times this opponent's play is consistent with K8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif (or some other hand we still beat), but many times it's not. At 3/6 I could see it, but Party 5/10 is way more passive than the other limits and (I think) the players are easier to read.

If the read on the player is good, then he can fold and know it was the correct decision. He won't be ahead of both opponents here often enough to make calling correct.

Or, the read is not so solid, and it should be a call.

[Azhrarn]

[ QUOTE ]
At 3/6 I could see it, but Party 5/10 is way more passive than the other limits and (I think) the players are easier to read.

[/ QUOTE ]

Huh, that's interesting. My experience with Party 5/10 has been that it's much trickier and more aggressive than 3/6.

But not the player in question this hand.

[Piiop]

[ QUOTE ]
Huh, that's interesting. My experience with Party 5/10 has been that it's much trickier and more aggressive than 3/6.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really??? More aggressive than 3/6?

In my experience, it seems like the random 3/6 is more aggro then the random 5/10 player and the tables in general have been more passive. Seems like there are way less LAGs and more tight-passives along with TAGs and loose-passives.