Should I Fold pocket queens on the flop in this 15/30? [Archive]

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veganmav

04-30-2005, 05:00 PM

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, SB folds.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Hero wins 5.50 BB. 
Was this 3-bet on the flop standard?
Is there anything else I could have done?
It was a long way to check/call down to find out if he was bluffing or not. If he capped me, I would have folded, but if he had just called, I don't know how I would have acted on the turn, I'd be afraid he would be holding the third K.
Any advice on how to play this and why?
Thank you

spoohunter

04-30-2005, 05:02 PM

Call his raise. Check call the turn. Bet the river.

bicyclekick

04-30-2005, 05:03 PM

The 3 bet sucks hard. Like really freaking hard.

Call him down. If you want to raise, raise the turn if it's not a diamond.

bicyclekick

04-30-2005, 05:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Call his raise. Check call the turn. Bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero has position.

veganmav

04-30-2005, 05:04 PM

why the hec would i do that?

veganmav

04-30-2005, 05:05 PM

can you tell me WHY the 3-bet sucks hard? I considered raising the turn if a diamond doesn't fall, but if a diamond does fall do i just call his bet down? and what do i do if i raise him on the turn and he 3bets me?

spoohunter

04-30-2005, 05:08 PM

The reason the three bet sucks is because this is a simple WAY ahead or WAY behind situation. Are you going to fold a better hand? There are very few hands that have many outs to beat you (2 or 3 is what you're looking at), unless you're behind, and then you have 2 outs.

So let him bet it the whole way. Wins the most when ahead, loses the least when behind.

bicyclekick

04-30-2005, 05:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
can you tell me WHY the 3-bet sucks hard? I considered raising the turn if a diamond doesn't fall, but if a diamond does fall do i just call his bet down? and what do i do if i raise him on the turn and he 3bets me?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you're likely WAY ahead or WAY behind...and if you 3 bet and you're way ahead, he'll fold, like he did. Wow, great, you got 0 bets after he raised. yay. If you call, you'll almost surely get no less than 1 more bb as he'll bet the turn.

If he in fact has the K, you just gave him at least another small bet.

Most players aren't going to call down 66 after you 3 bet them on the flop. You want them to think their stupid pair might be good.

veganmav

04-30-2005, 05:11 PM

[/ QUOTE ]

Because you're likely WAY ahead or WAY behind...and if you 3 bet and you're way ahead, he'll fold, like he did. Wow, great, you got 0 bets after he raised. yay. If you call, you'll almost surely get no less than 1 more bb as he'll bet the turn.

If he in fact has the K, you just gave him at least another small bet.

Most players aren't going to call down 66 after you 3 bet them on the flop. You want them to think their stupid pair might be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're right!! thanks a lot! i'm still learning

bicyclekick

04-30-2005, 05:12 PM

Don't learn at 15/30, you'll get killed.

ike

04-30-2005, 05:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Don't learn at 15/30, you'll get killed.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's right, if this hand isn't second nature for you, you're gonna get crushed in the 15/30. If you're serious about making money playing poker you should spend a while in the 3/6 or lower while you learn this stuff. Theres no shame in starting small.

ActionBob

04-30-2005, 05:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Because you're likely WAY ahead or WAY behind...and if you 3 bet and you're way ahead, he'll fold, like he did. Wow, great, you got 0 bets after he raised. yay. If you call, you'll almost surely get no less than 1 more bb as he'll bet the turn.

If he in fact has the K, you just gave him at least another small bet.

Most players aren't going to call down 66 after you 3 bet them on the flop. You want them to think their stupid pair might be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this line against most players. I'm not so sure what you say is true that most players won't call down 66 after you 3 bet them on the flop, I think in general most will.

As for raising the turn possibly, that IMO is much more likely to lose the 66 type players than just playing it fast on the flop and firing the whole way as it shows so much more strength.

Just my 2 cents.

-ActionBob

bicyclekick

04-30-2005, 05:29 PM

I don't raise either...hmmm.

You're right vs the 66...that it's more likely to lose him on the turn... hmmm.

Still the 3 bet on the flop sucks no matter what. You're right a turn raise isn't very good. I digress.

PokerBob

04-30-2005, 05:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, Hero raises, 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, BB folds, Hero 3-bets, SB folds.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

Results in white below: 
No showdown. Hero wins 5.50 BB. 
Was this 3-bet on the flop standard?
Is there anything else I could have done?
It was a long way to check/call down to find out if he was bluffing or not. If he capped me, I would have folded, but if he had just called, I don't know how I would have acted on the turn, I'd be afraid he would be holding the third K.
Any advice on how to play this and why?
Thank you

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you can smooth call the flop and pop the turn. If he 3-bets the turn, I'd have a hard time giving him credit for a hand that you're ahead of. A read would help, but you know that.

goofball

04-30-2005, 05:43 PM

This is a perfect spot to call the flop raise, call the turn, and raise the river if you think you are ahead more than half the time.

If he gets to the river with his pair of 6's and a showdown is just 1 big bet away he's way more likely to pay it off then if he's faced with a turn raise and a showdown 2 big bets away.

It blows if he 3bets the river though. A lot of the time there, even AK has a hard time with a river 3bet so you should probably fold but it's just excruciatingly painful.

veganmav

04-30-2005, 09:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is a perfect spot to call the flop raise, call the turn, and raise the river if you think you are ahead more than half the time.

If he gets to the river with his pair of 6's and a showdown is just 1 big bet away he's way more likely to pay it off then if he's faced with a turn raise and a showdown 2 big bets away.

It blows if he 3bets the river though. A lot of the time there, even AK has a hard time with a river 3bet so you should probably fold but it's just excruciatingly painful.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he 3bet the river, I don't think I could lay down QQ on, the pot would be laying me great odds to call one more bet, even if all I could beet was a bluff. What do you think about that? I think now calling his flop checkraise, and then calling down would be the best choice. Any opinions?

veganmav

04-30-2005, 09:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I think you can smooth call the flop and pop the turn. If he 3-bets the turn, I'd have a hard time giving him credit for a hand that you're ahead of. A read would help, but you know that.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so I call the flop checkraise, and the only thing I wonder, is should I really raise the turn? or should I just call down, I'm really torn, both seem like good options, but i'm leaning towards just calling down, since it wins the most when i'm ahead and wins the least when i'm behind. What do you all think?

bicyclekick

04-30-2005, 09:33 PM

I'm now convinced calling the turn is by far the better play. Goofball is right about the river being the place to raise, if any - and I htink just calling down is just fine.

I'm calling a 3 bet on the river too.

veganmav

04-30-2005, 10:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm now convinced calling the turn is by far the better play. Goofball is right about the river being the place to raise, if any - and I htink just calling down is just fine.

I'm calling a 3 bet on the river too.

[/ QUOTE ]

If a diamond falls though, I feel that I should definately not raise anywhere, and just call down. And I considered the idea that maybe he had something like AJd. I don't know how that plays into what I should do, but I'm just throwin' it out there.

goofball

04-30-2005, 10:49 PM

This is why it blows if he 3bets the river. I don't fold on the river either but all you can beat is a bluff. There's nothing you beat that he 3bets the river for value with. Also, I know it happens but how many times have you had someone bluff 3bet the river on you (just happened to me last night but that was the first time in a while). If you 3bet on the river calling really sucks, but folding sucks just a little bit more.

I guess, also, you have to be more than 50% sure you have the best hand to raise the river because of that possibility.

Calling down is more than fine.

PokerBob

05-01-2005, 02:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm now convinced calling the turn is by far the better play. Goofball is right about the river being the place to raise, if any - and I htink just calling down is just fine.

I'm calling a 3 bet on the river too.

[/ QUOTE ]

If a diamond falls though, I feel that I should definately not raise anywhere, and just call down. And I considered the idea that maybe he had something like AJd. I don't know how that plays into what I should do, but I'm just throwin' it out there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with BK's earlier post that a turn raise will run off a worse hand. In retrospect I think calling down is best, and bet the river if checked to. If he c/r's the river and show's me a K, then he outplayed me, and good for him.

veganmav

05-01-2005, 08:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]

I agree with BK's earlier post that a turn raise will run off a worse hand. In retrospect I think calling down is best, and bet the river if checked to. If he c/r's the river and show's me a K, then he outplayed me, and good for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

What if a diamond or An A falls? then I think it would be best to check the river if checked too, and only call the river if he bets into me.