Limit tournaments - overlay

[Nate tha' Great]

Hi all,

I'm thinking about entering one or more of the *limit* hold 'em events at the WSOP. I recognize that limit tournament poker is not very sexy; on the other hand I'm a good or maybe very good limit hold 'em player, and I'm not an especially good no limit hold 'em player.

What sort of overlay/return on investment can a very good limit hold 'em player expect in an event with the WSOP structure? Is it substantially less than what a very good NLHE player could expect in a NLHE tournament with a similar blind structure?


thanks, and apologies if this has been brought up before, I don't read this forum much.

Nate

[CardSharpCook]

WSOP events do not offer overlay. There is no garuanteed prize pool for any of the events.

As for ROI, I am curious myself. I consider Limit Texas Tourneys to be my most +EV poker situation. It combines my limit discipline with my tourney instincts. Now, what kind of ROI does that translate into? Well, we typically say here that ROI for a good-great MTT player is somewhere btwn 100-300%. However, we are not really sure.

At a limit tourney WSOP event I expect that a lot less of the goofballs you see in Party 100+9 events will be there. However, I can see a lot of people who still don't like NL - and there are a lot - thinking that a Limit WSOP event is their best chance. Maybe the field will be as weak as Party 100.

Variance in the outcome of the cards in Limit tourneys has a much greater effect than in its NL counterpart (you can lose half your stack with unimproved AKs and have it be "right" to do so). That is, you have a lot less control. I imagine that this reduces comparative ROI.

However, if you are not a tourney player (but a great cash game player) your chances are not as great. Even so, being a part time poster in mid/high limit (I'm full time MTT) I've read many of your posts and believe that your knowledge of the game makes any Limit tourney +EV for you. I say give it a shot. Doesn't take that long to recoup the buy-in at the level you play at.

CSC

I'll be at the July 3rd event (or is it the 1st?) Hope to see you there.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
WSOP events do not offer overlay. There is no garuanteed prize pool for any of the events.

[/ QUOTE ]

I may be using the term "overlay" wrong; I mean it to be synonymous with ROI.

[ QUOTE ]
However, if you are not a tourney player (but a great cash game player) your chances are not as great. Even so, being a part time poster in mid/high limit (I'm full time MTT) I've read many of your posts and believe that your knowledge of the game makes any Limit tourney +EV for you. I say give it a shot. Doesn't take that long to recoup the buy-in at the level you play at.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the vote of confidence. My tourney fundmamentals I think are okay, though obviously not as strong as a lot of folks here. Part of my motivation I think is to get myself comfortable with the WSOP environment while playing a *game* that I'm comfortable with. If I cashed in the LHE event and generally enjoyed myself, I might even say what the hell and give the big dance a shot.

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the vote of confidence. My tourney fundmamentals I think are okay, though obviously not as strong as a lot of folks here. Part of my motivation I think is to get myself comfortable with the WSOP environment while playing a *game* that I'm comfortable with. If I cashed in the LHE event and generally enjoyed myself, I might even say what the hell and give the big dance a shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting comment - I get to look at it in a different light. I have a razz tourney and an NL tourney to "warm-up" with or get used to the WSOP environ, but then my 3rd tourney will be the Limit tourney where I feel my chances are the best. And yes, if I cash well enough, I'll also buy a ticket to the big dance. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

CSC

[Mike Gallo]

I consider Limit Texas Tourneys to be my most +EV poker situation.

I respectfully disagree. No Limit tournaments offer the better players the best overlay. I think the better limit players do not have as much of an overlay as their no limit counter-parts.

[LarsVegas]

"I'm thinking about entering one or more of the *limit* hold 'em events at the WSOP. I recognize that limit tournament poker is not very sexy; on the other hand I'm a good or maybe very good limit hold 'em player, and I'm not an especially good no limit hold 'em player."

As a avid limit Holdem cashgame player/nl&limit tournament player, I think limit Holdem tournaments are TREMENDOUSLY under-rated. I am not entirely certain of how it affects on expectancy, but I love the way Limit Holdem tournament hands plays out pretty similar to cash game hands almost the entire tournament, often usually with chips in play between the players all the way to the 5th/river street. We need to get away from the perception that limit tournaments are not sexy. NL tourney does have it's good sides, but to me, preflop poker, replaced with allin poker (one-move poker) for large parts of many poker tournaments, doesn't strike me as particularly sexy.

"What sort of overlay/return on investment can a very good limit hold 'em player expect in an event with the WSOP structure? Is it substantially less than what a very good NLHE player could expect in a NLHE tournament with a similar blind structure?"

I played both the $5,000 limit and $10,000 no-limit event during last years WSOP. The $5,000 limit field is probably amongst the toughest fields you can find in tournament poker. Last year, I think it was 270 entrants in that event, I played three tables, and there were at least three bracelet holders at each of the tables I sat at (TJ, Magician, Annie Duke, Allen Cunningham, Ted Forrest, Curtis Bibb as well as Aruba winner Juha Helppi to name a few). There were 2500 in the no-limit event, and plenty of big fish. I also suspect it may be easier for a very good player to compete with an exceptional player in a large NL tourney, because if 2% of the players are exceptional, you won't be much bothered with them in the chip-building period, and a very good player should compete pretty well with an exceptional player in the "two-card" phase.

Therefore: In the WSOP specifically, a very good NL player will have a much better edge than a very good limit player in the $10k and $5k events respectively. Exceptional NL players will also fare better, if only because the NL field is so much weaker on average, but this is more debateable.

But, other than than, I think limit holdem tournaments in general are underrated and potentially extremely profitable for skillful players. At Party Poker, the level in limit tournaments seems unbelievably low.

lars

[Prime Time]

[ QUOTE ]
I consider Limit Texas Tourneys to be my most +EV poker situation.

I respectfully disagree. No Limit tournaments offer the better players the best overlay. I think the better limit players do not have as much of an overlay as their no limit counter-parts.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are using the term overlay wrong.
It refers to the money being put by the tournament sponsor to subsidize the guarantee amount. This occurs when they do not get enough anticipated entrants.

[CardSharpCook]

Well said, Lars, and I couldn't agree with you more.

Late game Limit tourneys are so damn sexy while late game NL tourneys are just plain dull. The best part is, all the sexiness that is lost at a cash table, comes back in a late tourney table. Chk/raising with a draw on the turn is again a play that can be made with FE against hands with 2nd button (in a cash game, calling down would be the most common play). For great AF players, the lategame limit advantage is huge.

As for me personally, I've had a great deal more success with limit tourneys than with NL tourneys. Sure, I've made more money in NL, but I've finished remarkably well in Limit tourneys. Variance could easily be an issue here, but Lars has reminded me why I find these tourneys so profitable.

Limit is so damn SEXY!!!! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

CSC

[CardSharpCook]

[ QUOTE ]
I consider Limit Texas Tourneys to be my most +EV poker situation.

I respectfully disagree. No Limit tournaments offer the better players the best overlay. I think the better limit players do not have as much of an overlay as their no limit counter-parts.

[/ QUOTE ]

You also happen to be disagreeing with a statement I made about myself. I'm glad you have so much faith in my NL abilities, but I really do have more faith in my Limit abilities - I'm not lying.

CSC /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[LarsVegas]

Good post CSC.

There are so many factors late in a limit tournament too, particularly on the final table. Sure, the survival aspect is of course there in NL tournies as well as limit tournaments, but usually the only way you use it in NL tourneys is whether is enough to prevent you from raising a hand, calling an allin with a hand or going allin with a hand.

In limit tournaments, it can be things such checking a semi-marginal, yet a hand you would bet 8 days a week in a similar cashgame situation, behind on the turn, just because being in a situation where you suddenly feel commited to three big bets on the turn/river is devasting as opposed to the alternative of getting safely to a showdown for one big bet on turn/river combined. Same goes for river play, basically a lot of situations on all streets. Finding that sensible fine line between good aggression, yet sensible tournament play at a stage in the tournament where simply still being in it holds a lot of value, and still being in it with 5 big bets instead of three is vitally important and so forth.

A solid limit holdem final table with interesting stacks, situations and hands is amongst the most beautiful thing I can see in poker.

Lars

[Paluka]

I also am interested in playing more limit holdem tourneys because my results have been very strong in them and I think they are underrated.
What I find weird is that I've seen top tourney pros do completely bizarre things in limit tourneys. David Pham called 3 bets cold preflop with 56s at my table once, early in a limit tourney. I just don't get it. It's not like he can bust me.

[MLG]

I think a lot of the tournament guys are probably not great pure limit holdem players. If they manage to get a stack early then when they blinds get high late they will do well because with high blinds, tournament poker is tournament poker is tournament poker. However, early on I would think the skill level would vary greatly depending on the pro.

[LarsVegas]

"What I find weird is that I've seen top tourney pros do completely bizarre things in limit tourneys. David Pham called 3 bets cold preflop with 56s at my table once, early in a limit tourney. I just don't get it. It's not like he can bust me."

This is very similar to my experiences too.

lars

[greg nice]

if youve ever read a ciaffone book, he uses the term 'overlay' to describe his advantage over the competition.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

i think NL experts can do considerbly better at NL tourneys than limit experts can do in limit tourneys. i have no basis to back this on, but it just *seems* correct.

[SoBeDude]

Limit tournies and Limit cash games play very differently.

Just because you're a solid limit player, doesn't mean you'll have success in the limit tourney arena.

What is odd, is that great NL tourney players Like Daniel N., also do quite well in limit events. Even though to the best of my knowledge he doesn't play much limit money games.

And I'm a solid limit cash player. It is the source of the largest portion of my income. I think I have a great feel for the game, I know where I'm at, and I usually know the right move/play. I've been crushing the mid and higher limits in both live and online play for a good while now.

But I suck at limit tournies. But I do really well in NL tournies.

Any ideas why?

-Scott

[Morningside]

Based on the 2 LHE events I played in last year's WSOP, I think you'll be surprised how weak the fields are. All my tables were something like a loose sloppy passive 10/20 game. Guess I had expected the $2K entry fee to have more of a filtering effect.

So yes, you'll have a clear overlay. How much? I wonder...

Consider that it's possible and not super-unusual to experience an entire limit tourney where every hand seems to play itself. There are just fewer openings for reads & expert plays, especially when every pot is multi-way. You aren't in control of your destiny, you simply must hit the flop, and sometimes this starts to feel like bingo. Overlay can't be so big here.

Make the final table with a decent stack, however, and your edge becomes very high again, especially if you have 6-max experience.

Btw in case you're wondering I think it's exciting to play in the WSOP, regardless of which event, and you won't forget it.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
Limit tournies and Limit cash games play very differently.

Just because you're a solid limit player, doesn't mean you'll have success in the limit tourney arena.

What is odd, is that great NL tourney players Like Daniel N., also do quite well in limit events. Even though to the best of my knowledge he doesn't play much limit money games.

And I'm a solid limit cash player. It is the source of the largest portion of my income. I think I have a great feel for the game, I know where I'm at, and I usually know the right move/play. I've been crushing the mid and higher limits in both live and online play for a good while now.

But I suck at limit tournies. But I do really well in NL tournies.

Any ideas why?

-Scott

[/ QUOTE ]

You really have to play a lot of tourneys before you can say you suck at them. ARe you sure you suck, or maybe you just had some bad luck?

[Analyst]

LHE tournies can be great fun. Subject to the particular tournament's strucuture, they generally play like very loose cash games for the first part, with blinds small or very small relative to the stacks. Here is where you'll see people playing any two, but unlike NL you generally can't build your stack significantly. Later on it transitions to a game that is almost a hybrid between limit and no limit, with the smaller stacks playing the latter and large stacks the former.

The only problem with the game, again depending on structure, is that the final table can become a total crapshoot, particularly as you get 3-5 handed. The big bets can become a significant percentage of the chips in play. I'm basing this on the Stars 200 tourney, where you may have 200k-250k total chips and limits of 8k/16k or higher by the end.

Come join the Stars 200 game some Saturday night. Just don't sit at my table, please!

[tipperdog]

I can't speak to big buy-in events like thw WSOP, but I think the following points would apply:

1. Once the blinds get high, a good understanding of tourney theory and tourney experience is probably more important than limit cash game experience. Unless you're a mega-stack, every hand could be your last and you simply can't allow yourself to get blinded away.

2. My favorite feature of limit tourneys is that they allow you to recover from a mistake or bad beat (others may find that a "non-confident" statement, but so be it). Early in a limit tourney last night I got KK vs. AA. In NL, I'm busted. In limit, I lost a big point but came to back to make final table. (I know this is obvious, but no one has mentioned it yet)

[SoBeDude]

You really have to play a lot of tourneys before you can say you suck at them. ARe you sure you suck, or maybe you just had some bad luck?

Great question. Don't know the answer.

And granted, I've played many many more NL tournies than limit. But I've only cashed once in a limit tourney and that day I was SET MAN. (flopped a ton o sets)

I think the problem is I'm torn between my need to play my tight limit game, and my aggressive tourney game. And what is needed is somewhere in between.

So I just don't feel comfortable and in control in a limit tourney, as I do in a limit cash gamr or a NL tourney.

-Scott