I Check-Raised With Outs

[GrunchCan]

The poster is very bad. Plus he posted a dead blind.

The main opponent is unknown. Assume typical 2/4 horse.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $3.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, CO (poster) checks, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+1 calls, CO folds.

Flop: (6 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises...</font>

[wrto4556]

A [ QUOTE ]
typical 2/4 horse

[/ QUOTE ] isn't folding enough, imo.

[mr pink]

i dunno if i like it or hate it.

it looks like total bs though.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
A [ QUOTE ]
typical 2/4 horse

[/ QUOTE ] isn't folding enough, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't do it for fold equity.

[wrto4556]

Its not for value.

[Piiop]

I would not raise this preflop. I would just bet the turn.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Its not for value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't do it for value, either. I agree.

[wrto4556]

I read the post wrong.

EDIT: I thought he raised the flop and you c/r the turn.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
I would not raise this preflop. I would just bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I PFRed becasue I felt I had an equity edge considering the dead blind. Poster has given up his BB for a raise before, and I should have said this in the OP. Sorry.

[Piiop]

Yeah, but what about the unknown limper and your poor position. I don't think QTo's equity edge makes up for that disadvantage.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
i dunno if i like it or hate it.

it looks like total bs though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, so here's what I'm thinking. Tell me if I'm way off.

I checked the turn in the first place because my draw improved. I think its close to 85%+ that I'll win if I spike the flush. Its also possible that the when I check the villan will bet overcards, a made hand worse than mine, or worse. He could be betting for fold equity. If I raise, I'll probably loose as much when behind as if I just check-call or bet, but it gives me an opportunity to win 1 additional BB if I spike my flush.

For what its worth, I have recently been studying the use of checking with outs. The CR move came from HPFAP, and it seemed logical. Your thoughts?

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, but what about the unknown limper and your poor position. I don't think QTo's equity edge makes up for that disadvantage.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would guess that QTo is close to breakeven against a typical 2/4 EP openlimper. Most hands that dominate me will PFR, with the notable exception of QJ. Agree/disagree?

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
For what its worth, I have recently been studying the use of checking with outs. The CR move came from HPFAP, and it seemed logical. Your thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Some folks on here were telling me that's used when in position.

I think it's likely you have the best hand and if not you have ways to improve. I just bet because a free card could be harmfull.

[GrunchCan]

[ QUOTE ]
Some folks on here were telling me that's used when in position.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's gotta be incorrect. The way I understand it, the reason you check a vulnerable made hand when your draw improves is becasue 1) the pot's big enough to call a bet and 2) your folding equity is gone or reduced.

But if your'e in position, checking doesn't give anyone the chance to bet, so there's nothing to call. IP, I'd just bet.

[GrunchCan]

If anyone's interested, please read HPFAP p. 141. Last complete paragraph, beginning "The second important concept regarding 4thstreet play..."

[mr pink]

[ QUOTE ]
I checked the turn in the first place because my draw improved. I think its close to 85%+ that I'll win if I spike the flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is also a good spot to semibluff if you think there is a good chance he'll fold. villain in this hand hasn't shown much interest in his hand, i'd probably just bet the turn and hope he folds. you've got mp and outs to improve if he's got a king.

[ QUOTE ]
Its also possible that the when I check the villan will bet overcards, a made hand worse than mine, or worse. He could be betting for fold equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is true, but isn't he likely to fold most of this with a turn bet? and if he doesn't bet, then you're giving him a free card to draw out on your mp.

[ QUOTE ]
If I raise, I'll probably loose as much when behind as if I just check-call or bet, but it gives me an opportunity to win 1 additional BB if I spike my flush.


[/ QUOTE ]

i would HATE getting 3-bet here, which check/raising opens you up to if he's already on his flush. i think bet/call is the right line in this spot. you'll win this pot with a turn bet a good % of the time, your hand might be best, you don't offer him any free cards, and you can handle a raise.

it just seems like there is so much that needs to go right here for check/raising to be the right play.

edit: going to bed now, but i'd like to hear some more thoughts on check/calling the turn here.

[Piiop]

The bet with no outs/check with outs is for when you're in position.

If you have a draw, you'd like to see the river cheaply instead of having to call a checkraise.

If you have a weak hand, you don't want to give free cards to draws, but you have no way to improve so it's an easy fold.

This is in hepfap I believe, your hand does not really involve this concept.

[KDawgCometh]

If this was Q10s then I could see the PF raise, but with it being off suit you don't get enough value tieing your opponents to the hand. If your gonna CR it, I'd do it on the flop, but that's a big if. I think just betting it out on the turn is the smartest play here

[wrto4556]

Sklansky gives two examples.

1) You have AA and the 3rd of a suit hits the turn. You should bet/fold against a typical player.

2) You have K3 and the 3rd of a suit hits the turn but it also give you two pair. You should check/call.

Later, it says that you should check/raise your good hands. This isn't a very good hand.

If you're going by HEPFAP you should check/call this turn, but the reason I believe that to be incorrect is because you have the best hand often, fold equity, and the fear of a free card.

I could be convinced otherwise. Like it says in the book: After you're raised, you wish you'd hadn't bet.

This hand isn't a check/raising scenario, but i could see someone argue a point about checking and calling...

[NickRegino]

i dont really like that play at all

[LImitPlayer]

Preflop raise was just awfull. You are out of position with a mediocre hand. If you were the button or the cuttoff then it's a different story.

Planning to checkraise the hand here is also a bad move. You don't want to give a free card here and then lose the pot. Giving a free card here may hurt you, why risk it?

Your opponent has not shown any strength with his hand and has not given you reason to think you are beat.

Bet the turn. I think you would have taken this hand down on the turn if you had bet it.

[Isura]

Posting blind, so take this FWIW. I don't like the turn raise. You really don't want this river checked when you improve, and you're getting 3-bet by hands you are behind. Also if villian is bluffing or betting a crap pair or somthing, you slow him down.

Edit: Preflop raise a misclick?

[Trix]

Too fancy, twice..

You still have to get UTG out even if your raise sometimes folds the other guy.

Just bet the turn, he will call down 5x and pairs, probably call with a club too, but may check it.

Edit: how do you know you are behind ? if thats what you mean with your title and what do you think you can make him fold if this is a semibluff check-raise ?