Jason_t is a nit.... [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

jason_t

04-29-2005, 10:38 PM

Jordan and I ran into each other on a 0.5/1 table today. He's practicing 8-tabling and I'm bonus clearing. He tried to Clarkmeister me here and folded the winner. Now tell me who is the nit?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: jason_t is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG posts a blind of $0.5.
4 folds, MP3 :#A500AF(CallMeIshmael)/ raises, jason_t 3-bets, 3 folds, MP3 :#A500AF(CallMeIshmael)/ caps, jason_t calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
CallMeIshmael bets, jason_t calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
CallMeIshmael bets, jason_t calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
CallMeIshmael bets, jason_t raises, CallMeIshmael folds.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Results in white below: 
MP3 doesn't show.
jason_t has Ah Ks (one pair, nines).
Outcome: jason_t wins 10.75 BB.

KDawgCometh

04-29-2005, 10:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Jordan and I ran into each other on a 0.5/1 table today. He's practicing 8-tabling and I'm bonus clearing. He tried to Clarkmeister me here and folded the winner. Now tell me who is the nit?

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: jason_t is CO with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG posts a blind of $0.5.
4 folds, MP3 :#A500AF(CallMeIshmael)/ raises, jason_t 3-bets, 3 folds, MP3 :#A500AF(CallMeIshmael)/ caps, jason_t calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
CallMeIshmael bets, jason_t calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
CallMeIshmael bets, jason_t calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
CallMeIshmael bets, jason_t raises, CallMeIshmael folds.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Results in white below: 
BB doesn't show.
jason_t has Ah Ks (one pair, nines).
Outcome: jason_t wins 10.75 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]

nope, you still a nit /images/graemlins/grin.gif

CallMeIshmael

04-29-2005, 10:58 PM

Jason sadly forgot to post these two beauties...

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: CallMeIshmael is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif.
5 folds, CallMeIshmael raises, jaston_t 3-bets, CallMeIshmael calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
CallMeIshmael checks, jaston_t bets, CallMeIshmael calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
CallMeIshmael bets, jaston_t raises, CallMeIshmael 3-bets, jaston_t caps, CallMeIshmael calls.

River: (12 BB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
CallMeIshmael checks, jaston_t bets, CallMeIshmael calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Results in white below:
CallMeIshmael has As 3c (one pair, aces).
jaston_t has 7d 2c (one pair, sevens).
Outcome: CallMeIshmael wins 14 BB.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: CallMeIshmael is MP2 with 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
1 fold, MP1 calls, CallMeIshmael raises, jaston_t 3-bets, 3 folds, MP1 calls, CallMeIshmael calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
MP1 checks, CallMeIshmael checks, jaston_t bets, MP1 folds, CallMeIshmael raises, jaston_t calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
CallMeIshmael bets, jaston_t raises, CallMeIshmael calls.

River: (11.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
CallMeIshmael checks, jaston_t bets, CallMeIshmael raises, jaston_t 3-bets, CallMeIshmael caps, jaston_t calls.

Final Pot: 19.25 BB

Results in white below:
CallMeIshmael has 8d 8h (full house, eights full of sevens).
jaston_t has Ac Ah (two pair, aces and sevens).
Outcome: CallMeIshmael wins 19.25 BB.

(FWIW, I typed into him on AIM that the turn raise in the second probably meant I was beat... but after the first hand, I wasnt about to lay down an overpair with his donkish stylings)

jason_t

04-29-2005, 11:06 PM

In hand one you missed some bets and nice river in hand two, fish.

CallMeIshmael

04-29-2005, 11:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In hand one you missed some bets and nice river in hand two, fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

touche, chessmaster.

ErrantNight

04-29-2005, 11:09 PM

at least he knows anaheim is los angeles. sheesh.

shant

04-29-2005, 11:13 PM

Anaheim is Orange County.

ErrantNight

04-29-2005, 11:15 PM

i may not have been serious. i'll go back and check for sarcasm, though....

CallMeIshmael

04-29-2005, 11:16 PM

Vlad G = best all-around player in baseball... discuss...

KDawgCometh

04-29-2005, 11:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Vlad G = best all-around player in baseball... discuss...

[/ QUOTE ]

while normally I'd agree, but I feel argumentative tonight so, ARod. This is coming from a diehard WhiteSox fan too

shant

04-29-2005, 11:20 PM

damn hard to detect internet sarcasm. my bad dude.

CallMeIshmael

04-29-2005, 11:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is coming from a diehard WhiteSox fan too

[/ QUOTE ]

You must be a happy fella!

jason_t

04-29-2005, 11:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Vlad G = best all-around player in baseball... discuss...

[/ QUOTE ]

Here's something I've wondered: being from Canada and being in the closet, what are your feelings on hockey? I mean, on the hand, it's your national sport, but on the other hand, it's a rather violent game which may not appeal to you being in the closet and all.

jason_t

04-29-2005, 11:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In hand one you missed some bets and nice river in hand two, fish.

[/ QUOTE ]

touche, chessmaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you play?

ErrantNight

04-29-2005, 11:25 PM

you just hijacked your own low content thread with completely off-topic content! bless you!

i think discussion could be had for carlos beltran... he's not as good a bat, his defense (although perhaps strong than vlad's) is a bit overrated... and before his back injuries vlad was no slouch on the basepaths...

i think discussion, unfortunately, needs to involve a-rod... great defensive shortstop, excellent defensive thirdbasemen in just over a year on the job... decent speed, great bat (although, again, not as great as vlad's... although closer than beltran...)

worthy of mention: albert pujols... solid defense, but not exactly a speedster... easily the best bat in the game not wielded by bonds... and getting BETTER... and YOUNGER than any of the above guys...

ErrantNight

04-29-2005, 11:26 PM

best to check your batteries every time you enter a thread entitled "_______ is a nit..."

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

(no need to apologize)

jason_t

04-29-2005, 11:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Vlad G = best all-around player in baseball... discuss...

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, A-Rod is the answer.

mr pink

04-29-2005, 11:27 PM

jason_t

04-29-2005, 11:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
best to check your batteries every time you enter a thread entitled "_______ is a nit..."

/images/graemlins/grin.gif

(no need to apologize)

[/ QUOTE ]

We need more of these threads preferably not initially about me.

KDawgCometh

04-29-2005, 11:27 PM

Carlos Beltran=overrated&overpriced

CallMeIshmael

04-29-2005, 11:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Do you play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you?

(FWIW... a friend of mine and I were playing, and we were discussing which move was better... then, we plugged it into chessmaster, and he said a third (MUCH better) move neither of us saw... and he said "touche chessmaster"... which kind of stuck)

(PS... wow am I a nerd)

KDawgCometh

04-29-2005, 11:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is coming from a diehard WhiteSox fan too

[/ QUOTE ]

You must be a happy fella!

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah, its nice that they've learned that baseball starts in April and not june /images/graemlins/smile.gif

KDawgCometh

04-29-2005, 11:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Vlad G = best all-around player in baseball... discuss...

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, A-Rod is the answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

I already said it(puffs chest out)

CallMeIshmael

04-29-2005, 11:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Here's something I've wondered: being from Canada and being in the closet, what are your feelings on hockey? I mean, on the hand, it's your national sport, but on the other hand, it's a rather violent game which may not appeal to you being in the closet and all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hockey = awesome.

Amazing, gritty sport. FWIW, hockey was part of the reason I choose Cornell, as its huge there.

Also... For the record to all: Im not not in the closet. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

jason_t

04-29-2005, 11:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here's something I've wondered: being from Canada and being in the closet, what are your feelings on hockey? I mean, on the hand, it's your national sport, but on the other hand, it's a rather violent game which may not appeal to you being in the closet and all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hockey = awesome.

Amazing, gritty sport. FWIW, hockey was part of the reason I choose Cornell, as its huge there.

Also... For the record to all: Im not not in the closet. (Not that there's anything wrong with that.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Classic denial.

CallMeIshmael

04-29-2005, 11:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
you just hijacked your own low content thread with completely off-topic content! bless you!

[/ QUOTE ]

I do what I can.

[ QUOTE ]

i think discussion could be had for carlos beltran... he's not as good a bat, his defense (although perhaps strong than vlad's) is a bit overrated... and before his back injuries vlad was no slouch on the basepaths...

[/ QUOTE ]

Im meh on him, to be honest.

[ QUOTE ]

i think discussion, unfortunately, needs to involve a-rod... great defensive shortstop, excellent defensive thirdbasemen in just over a year on the job... decent speed, great bat (although, again, not as great as vlad's... although closer than beltran...)

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course a-rod needs mentioning. And I think he's number 2.

[ QUOTE ]
worthy of mention: albert pujols... solid defense, but not exactly a speedster... easily the best bat in the game not wielded by bonds... and getting BETTER... and YOUNGER than any of the above guys...

[/ QUOTE ]

I /images/graemlins/heart.gif Fat Albert. Amazing, amazing hitter. Seems like (UNLIKE Bonds) a really really nice guy too.

istewart

04-29-2005, 11:38 PM

Ishmael knows that Cornell is god-awful at sports.

jason_t knows that he is pwned by <---.

CallMeIshmael

04-29-2005, 11:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ishmael knows that Cornell is god-awful at sports.

[/ QUOTE ]

Penn is so lame in every possible area that it is almost comical.

ErrantNight

04-29-2005, 11:40 PM

i'm not sure, outside of his agent and the general managers/owners who overrates him... and he may be overpaid but he's not nearly as overpaid as arod is... or many other players...

KDawgCometh

04-29-2005, 11:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ishmael knows that Cornell is god-awful at sports.

[/ QUOTE ]

Penn is so lame in every possible area that it is almost comical.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, Rutgers blows away both Penn and Cornell, oh wait, what's my argument again

ErrantNight

04-29-2005, 11:42 PM

i finish classes monday and walk in less than 2 weeks.

i pwn.

KDawgCometh

04-29-2005, 11:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i'm not sure, outside of his agent and the general managers/owners who overrates him... and he may be overpaid but he's not nearly as overpaid as arod is... or many other players...

[/ QUOTE ]

what has Beltran done to deserve his pay, nothing much compared to ARod. ARod showed up after he got the massive contract to the tune of 57 home 143 RBIs. I just can't see how Beltran is gonna justify his contract and hype

istewart

04-29-2005, 11:45 PM

Only kids that like suicide or being in hotel administration go to Cornell. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

CallMeIshmael

04-29-2005, 11:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Only kids that like suicide or being in hotel administration go to Cornell. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

touche, chessmaster

istewart

04-29-2005, 11:48 PM

You ever been to the Mahogany Grill? I think that's what it's called. I went there a few years back, in Ithaca. Was pretty good from what I remember.

CallMeIshmael

04-29-2005, 11:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You ever been to the Mahogany Grill? I think that's what it's called. I went there a few years back, in Ithaca. Was pretty good from what I remember.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah... Its really good

was this a a school visit?

(this thread has like negative content)

ErrantNight

04-29-2005, 11:51 PM

the fact that you brought up RBI's in a discussion of best player in the game makes me lose respect for you.

the fact that you "justify" arod's ridiculous contract because of one season stat's makes me lose respect for you.

i'm not sure, outside of whatever tabloid new york media, what hype you're referring to. he was consistently referred to as the best free agent available last year, young, in his prime, still improving, AND "going to be massively overpayed for having one great post-season." i fail to see where this overwhelming flood of undeserved hype is coming from.

the fact that you ask what beltran has done to deserve his pay makes me lose respect for you. do you mean this year? dude, it's been less than a month. do you mean over his career? he's easily one of the best players in the game coming off an incredible late season run with the best agent in the game. what did you expect? are you a kansas city fan? a houston fan? what's your deal?

and just to be argumentative... what's arod done? besides choose money over competitiveness and then, ridiculous contract in hand, push to move himself to one of the handful of teams with enough money to take on his ridiculously inflated contract? and slap bronson arroyo like a lil girl. and get smacked by jason varitek.

and yes, he's probably the best overall player in the game.

CallMeIshmael

04-29-2005, 11:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
and just to be argumentative... what's arod done? besides choose money over competitiveness and then, ridiculous contract in hand, push to move himself to one of the handful of teams with enough money to take on his ridiculously inflated contract? and slap bronson arroyo like a lil girl. and get smacked by jason varitek.

[/ QUOTE ]

POTD

istewart

04-29-2005, 11:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You ever been to the Mahogany Grill? I think that's what it's called. I went there a few years back, in Ithaca. Was pretty good from what I remember.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah... Its really good

was this a a school visit?

(this thread has like negative content)

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. Cold as a mofo up there, even around October 1st (2003ish).

CallMeIshmael

04-29-2005, 11:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Yep. Cold as a mofo up there, even around October 1st (2003ish).

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait til January...

istewart

04-29-2005, 11:59 PM

roflmao

The food there is so +EV there, too. Great stuff. Too much walking though /images/graemlins/wink.gif

27offsooot

04-30-2005, 12:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Vlad G = best all-around player in baseball... discuss...

[/ QUOTE ]

Also, A-Rod is the answer.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that the same A-rod who choked on monkey balls with runners in scoring position last year and every other key situation. I think it's close b/t Pujols and Vlad. Vlad's got the better defense and speed. Also, Vlad has the killer plate discipline /images/graemlins/grin.gif. If u throw in pitchers, gotta like Santana in the discussion.

On another topic, do baseball and poker seem to go together. They're definitely my two favorite hobbies and this seems to hold true for others.

istewart

04-30-2005, 12:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]

On another topic, do baseball and poker seem to go together

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

KDawgCometh

04-30-2005, 12:28 AM

ARod's career stats through 11 seasons since his debut

Runs: 1140
hits: 1737
HR: 389
Rbi: 1122
Avg,:.305

Beltran's career stats in seven seasons since his debut

Runs: 627
hits: 1012
HR: 149
Rbi: 589
Avg. : .284

KDawgCometh

04-30-2005, 12:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

On another topic, do baseball and poker seem to go together

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Poker and sports in general go together well

CallMeIshmael

04-30-2005, 12:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Poker and sports in general go together well

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its more true of baseball than other sports though.

The mathematial nature of baseball lends itself to those who enjoy a game that is very heavily base in mathematics.

jason_t

04-30-2005, 05:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ishmael knows that Cornell is god-awful at sports.

[/ QUOTE ]

Penn is so lame in every possible area that it is almost comical.

[/ QUOTE ]

dude, Rutgers blows away both Penn and Cornell, oh wait, what's my argument again

[/ QUOTE ]

In football? Yeah, right.

jason_t

04-30-2005, 05:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]

and just to be argumentative... what's arod done? besides choose money over competitiveness and then, ridiculous contract in hand, push to move himself to one of the handful of teams with enough money to take on his ridiculously inflated contract? and slap bronson arroyo like a lil girl. and get smacked by jason varitek.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jason's are the pwn.

jason_t

04-30-2005, 05:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ishmael knows that Cornell is god-awful at sports.

jason_t knows that he is pwned by <---.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm was so mad at DePodesta last year for letting Paul Lo Duca and Dave Roberts go but it worked out. However, I will never forgive him for letting Adrian Beltre, Shawn Green and Steve Finley get away.

ErrantNight

04-30-2005, 09:20 AM

if you're posting career stats just drop the ken griffey jr. bomb and punish.

but he hasn't had a good year in 5.

and, dude, don't EVER enter into a conversation about the greatest ever if you're still living in the dark ages of "runs, hr, rbi, avg."

yes, batting average and home runs have some bearing... but i hate to break it to you, runs and rbi's have almost as much to do with the team you play for and your position in the batting order as they do your ability to hit a baseball.

hell, I could probably knock in a hundred runs a year batting cleanup for the red sox.

seriously. it's the equivalent of saying jose mesa is one of the best closers in the game because he's among the career active leaders. (Saves, another wholly useless statistic, along with errors, and a host of others)

unless we're talking fantasy baseball.

but you're missing the point:

his entire team felt that he was so good they need never say a single of work support for him when he was being called out by the entire red sox team this offseason (not, i'll note, a highlight if you're a red sox fan)... you've only got a couple more years of futile yankee over-spending before the tables turn on this guy...

and NONE of this has ANYTHING to do with how ridiculously overpaid arod is. there is no defense for spending 8 million more a year for him than anyone else. i'm sorry, it's not like he's playing on an entirely different level than the rest of the league. whereas, barry bonds just toys with everyone, human growth hormones and steroids or whatever, he makes every other hitter in baseball look like they're playing in the little leagues. at least, he did/will until his head explodes.

ErrantNight

04-30-2005, 09:26 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ishmael knows that Cornell is god-awful at sports.

jason_t knows that he is pwned by <---.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm was so mad at DePodesta last year for letting Paul Lo Duca and Dave Roberts go but it worked out. However, I will never forgive him for letting Adrian Beltre, Shawn Green and Steve Finley get away.

[/ QUOTE ]

are you kidding me? you're mad shawn green is gone? really? have you noticed he's on the slippery slope to hell?

dave roberts is a back-up, for goodness sakes. and yes, i know i owe him my existence for that steal, but he's not a player you start every day. not on a championship team, anyway.

and is it conceivable that the reason the dodgers got the short end of that stick is that their primary acquisition (penny), was injured shortly therafter?

i'm sorry... but take out "veteran leadership," whatever the hell that is, and the dodgers FLEECED the marlins in that deal, whatever the john kruk, espn opinion of the day was about the deal, or however attached y'all were to your duca...

now if you want to knock him for overpaying for lowe but not overpaying for beltre, thee's an argument... but i'd love to see beltre put together another season close to last year before i'd argue he's worthy of a long term deal...

and steve finley will, eventually, wake up one day to find he's got a big fork sticking out of his back. he's on the wrong side of 40 my friend.

chesspain

04-30-2005, 09:28 AM

ErrantNight

04-30-2005, 09:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Poker and sports in general go together well

[/ QUOTE ]

I think its more true of baseball than other sports though.

The mathematial nature of baseball lends itself to those who enjoy a game that is very heavily base in mathematics.

[/ QUOTE ]

kdawg, just to give you an analogy, if the above is true, then:

RBI's : Baseball
as
Winning Lots of Pots : Poker

do you see why?

I'll let others elaborate.

ErrantNight

04-30-2005, 09:29 AM

no.

CallMeIshmael

04-30-2005, 10:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
john kruk

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard that Kruk, while trying out for the White Sox (very late in his career) wore a shirt that read:

"If I dont make the team, Im taking my ball and going home"

Can anyone confirm this?? Because, if its true, its amazing.

CallMeIshmael

04-30-2005, 11:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
RBI's : Baseball
as
Winning Lots of Pots : Poker

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, I agree with you... but RBI (of the major stats) is the best indicator of clutchness (though there are minor stats that are much better)

Clutchness is huge in baseball... I mean, if I had to pick a SS to play in the world series, Im picking Jeter and its not close. But, Im not picking him to play 162 games for me. Ya know?

ErrantNight

04-30-2005, 11:23 AM

there is no such thing as clutchness. RBIs are NOT even among the better indicators, as your RBIs frequently are not even directly correlated to things such as, avg. w/ RISP. it has everything to do with where you are in the lineup, and how often the people in front of you get on base.

i challenge you to find evidence, not conjuncture, that RBIs in any way reflect a player's "clutchness." but it's a hollow challenge. you can't, but what you might find in your search is precisely why this is correct...

let me point you to:

baseballprospectus.com

brettbrettr

04-30-2005, 11:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i finish classes monday and walk in less than 2 weeks.

i pwn.

[/ QUOTE ]

graduating is -ev. pick up another major, stay forever.

ErrantNight

04-30-2005, 11:28 AM

well i already took some time off before i started...

but in interesting news, i went to emerson to get a film degree. i added writing. now it appears i'm missing a media ethics class from my film major, leaving me with a writing major, and enough credits to graduate. meaning, i might go back this fall, after all.

Entity

04-30-2005, 11:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
john kruk

[/ QUOTE ]

I've heard that Kruk, while trying out for the White Sox (very late in his career) wore a shirt that read:

"If I dont make the team, Im taking my ball and going home"

Can anyone confirm this?? Because, if its true, its amazing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it's true. Kruk is hilarious, and was a damned good hitter for a lardass. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rob

CallMeIshmael

04-30-2005, 11:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
there is no such thing as clutchness.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would say that this is incorrect. History is filled with individuals who have risen to the occassion. Is it your contention that all of these are just spikes of random luck?

[ QUOTE ]
i challenge you to find evidence, not conjuncture, that RBIs in any way reflect a player's "clutchness."

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets assume, for the sake of argument, that there does exist a clutchness... which major stat is a better indicator? Simply put, none are that good. RBI is just better than the rest.

ErrantNight

04-30-2005, 11:39 AM

i would argue that clutchness is observed and then attributed. it does not exist, per se. even the most "clutch" hitters in baseball, say, the ones that are at their best when the chips are down, may not have a large enough sample size to ever prove this. likewise, players may inaccurately be labeled as clutch due to some luck.

it's not all of one and none of the other... but c'mon, sample size! you play poker!

my argument against RBIs is that the "major" or "traditional" stats really are not useful gauges, in many ways, of how effective a hitter is. really. there's boatloads of evidence for this. but it's confusing, stat-geek [censored] with stats involving lengthy acronyms.

all RBIs tell you is that this when this guy hits, there are frequently men on base in front of him. it's a more accurate gauge of a guy being in a good lineup, and in a good place in that lineup, than whether they hit in the clutch.

CallMeIshmael

04-30-2005, 11:51 AM

[ QUOTE ]
i would argue that clutchness is observed and then attributed. it does not exist, per se. even the most "clutch" hitters in baseball, say, the ones that are at their best when the chips are down, may not have a large enough sample size to ever prove this. likewise, players may inaccurately be labeled as clutch due to some luck.

it's not all of one and none of the other... but c'mon, sample size! you play poker!

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what you're saying... But (and I will admit there is absolutely no way to either prove or refute this point)... lets say for example that 3 players are essentially identical in non-pressure situations, and all get a 7 out of 10 rating. I feel that, since people handle pressure differently, it is totally impossible for these players to get a 8,7 and 6 rating out of 10.

Though its a pretty bad example, if you look at Tiger Woods, he has shown a clear ability to rise to the occasion when in contention. While people like Davis Love III (who has admitted a fear of playing with Tiger) have not shown this ability.

Now... I know thats golf, and we're talking baseball... BUT... if, in golf, people show differential ability to rise to the occasion, it stands to reason that it is probably also true in baseball. It just happens that this is MUCH easier to view in a sport like golf. (baseball, as you have pointed out, needs a large ass sample size before good conclusions can be reached)

[ QUOTE ]
my argument against RBIs is that the "major" or "traditional" stats really are not useful gauges, in many ways, of how effective a hitter is. really. there's boatloads of evidence for this. but it's confusing, stat-geek [censored] with stats involving lengthy acronyms.

all RBIs tell you is that this when this guy hits, there are frequently men on base in front of him. it's a more accurate gauge of a guy being in a good lineup, and in a good place in that lineup, than whether they hit in the clutch.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that RBI is not a great stat. Thats not my point. I was just saying of the 'majors', that I would think it is the best indicator of being clutch.

Im sure there is a way (where's Nate when you need him) to normalize RBI in a way such that you can accurately compare players on different teams (or simply same team, different spot in order).

FWIW... avg w/RISP is a MUCH better indicator of clutchness... and also more important in the 'best all around' hitter discussion.

ErrantNight

04-30-2005, 12:01 PM

ok... but to take your analogy in another way... let's say you are one of the 20 best players in the world of poker. it's the world series of poker a few years from now, and you've made it to the twelfth day of play, and the last. now, win the tournament.

you're gonna need some luck, someone might beat you who's had a 12 day luck streak, you might meet a player that sucks but can absolutely own you for no particular reason...

YES you might do extremely well in pressure situations (say, in such situations, you're top 5 in the world)... but that doesn't eliminate the other factors.. and the issue, particularly in baseball... but in poker as well... is that in the short term there's no way to balance out those other factors. now, in poker you could start touring and play in tournament after tournament after tournament, against many of the same field, and prove yourself.

in baseball, you might play in three or four playoffs over the course of your entire career, many years apart, against conceviably entirely different opposition.

now, you could make the return argument that a more accurate measure of clutchness would be look at a playeres career stats, or say, in september... what you'll find is that the best players in baseball vary their effectiveness in these months or in "pressure" situations pretty much precisely the same way as they do in non-pressure situations... there are some exceptions, but this is true on the whole...

and this is particularly true of stats such as batting avg. w/ runners in scoring position... now, this might mean that for whatever reason the batter really was getting nervous and unable to hit in those situations... but that doesn't mean they aren't incapable, and in fact, next year, might feel more comfortable...

as for RBIs... there are ways to normalize for teams played on, and ballpark effects, and all sorts of [censored]... but when they do... people ignore RBIs... because it's been proven that all RBIs do is let you know that the people in front of you get on base a bunch.

brazilio

04-30-2005, 12:06 PM

hey guys, baseball's kinda lame

ErrantNight

04-30-2005, 12:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
hey guys, baseball's kinda lame

[/ QUOTE ]

i can't hear you.

ErrantNight

04-30-2005, 12:10 PM

but sorry... this is all incredibly off-topic and... sort of a pointless, useless discussion... you're right to ask for it's death

ceskylev

04-30-2005, 12:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW... avg w/RISP is a MUCH better indicator of clutchness... and also more important in the 'best all around' hitter discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

No discussion of "best all around" hitter should include batting average. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Try OPS if you want a decent quickie stat. And get thee to BP as per ErrantNight's recommendation. They're good writers and innovative thinkers over there. And one of them's a Hold 'Em player. How can you go wrong?

brazilio

04-30-2005, 12:38 PM

no, I think this thread has validity. Personally I think it fills the role of a sticky PSA describing jason_t as a nit, which is vital information to many threads.

jason_t

04-30-2005, 02:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
RBI's : Baseball
as
Winning Lots of Pots : Poker

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, I agree with you... but RBI (of the major stats) is the best indicator of clutchness (though there are minor stats that are much better)

Clutchness is huge in baseball... I mean, if I had to pick a SS to play in the world series, Im picking Jeter and its not close. But, Im not picking him to play 162 games for me. Ya know?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope that someone has already pointed out to you that clutch doesn't exist. There was even a thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=2081595&Fo rum=f20&Words=%2BJeter%20%2Bclutch%20-Re%3A&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=2081595&Search=tr ue&where=sub&Name=&daterange=1&newerval=8&newertyp e=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post2081595) a few weeks ago.

stabn

04-30-2005, 02:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
no, I think this thread has validity. Personally I think it fills the role of a sticky PSA describing jason_t as a nit, which is vital information to many threads.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe a chesspain is a nit thread is needed as well?

jason_t

04-30-2005, 02:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
no, I think this thread has validity. Personally I think it fills the role of a sticky PSA describing jason_t as a nit, which is vital information to many threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

You think baseball is lame so your authority to comment on my nittiness has disappeared.

RacersEdge

04-30-2005, 02:50 PM

What's the EV of reading this entire thread?

CallMeIshmael

04-30-2005, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
RBI's : Baseball
as
Winning Lots of Pots : Poker

[/ QUOTE ]

In general, I agree with you... but RBI (of the major stats) is the best indicator of clutchness (though there are minor stats that are much better)

Clutchness is huge in baseball... I mean, if I had to pick a SS to play in the world series, Im picking Jeter and its not close. But, Im not picking him to play 162 games for me. Ya know?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope that someone has already pointed out to you that clutch doesn't exist. There was even a thread (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=exchange&Number=2081595&Fo rum=f20&Words=%2BJeter%20%2Bclutch%20-Re%3A&Searchpage=0&Limit=25&Main=2081595&Search=tr ue&where=sub&Name=&daterange=1&newerval=8&newertyp e=w&olderval=&oldertype=&bodyprev=#Post2081595) a few weeks ago.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont have time to detail the argument right now as Im 8-tabling... but I disagree with this statement.

I have to point out that it is is essentially impossible for either side to 'prove' the other wrong here though...

as the number of 'clutch' situations needed to prove that this player or that player is clutch is so large as to be impossible to realize.

But... if the measure of 'clutchness' is determined by players differential ability to play well (relative to their normaal ability) in pressure situations, I find it difficult to believe that clutch doesnt exist.

EDIT: I feel our differences on this issue stem from semantics. IE. What exactly we are defining as clutch.

I think you would agree with me, and I with you, if we switched our definitions of the word.

Also... I am also not claiming that someone like Jeter or even Jackson are in fact 'clutc', but simply it is more likely given the information we have, using Beyes.

CallMeIshmael

04-30-2005, 02:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What's the EV of reading this entire thread?

[/ QUOTE ]

-0.02BB/100.

This thread is so bad it acutally makes you a worse player

GrekeHaus

04-30-2005, 03:48 PM

There was a good article in SI about a year ago about just this topic. It took a look at players and compared their normal averages to their averages in late and close situations. They defined a late and close situations as (I think) after the 7th inning in a game that's closer than 2 runs.

What they discovered was that over the course of a season, you could find a few players that hit significantly better in the clutch, however, over the course of a player's career, there was nobody who performed significantly better in LACS.

So, much like poker, the short term can create the illusion of clutch hitters, but in the long term there is no such thing.

chesspain

04-30-2005, 04:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe a chesspain is a nit thread is needed as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell me something I don't freakin know.

CallMeIshmael

04-30-2005, 04:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
There was a good article in SI about a year ago about just this topic. It took a look at players and compared their normal averages to their averages in late and close situations. They defined a late and close situations as (I think) after the 7th inning in a game that's closer than 2 runs.

What they discovered was that over the course of a season, you could find a few players that hit significantly better in the clutch, however, over the course of a player's career, there was nobody who performed significantly better in LACS.

So, much like poker, the short term can create the illusion of clutch hitters, but in the long term there is no such thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Though I havent read the article, I would like to point out a subtle difference between what I call clutch and what these people are calling clutch.

They are defining 'clutch' as a hitters ability to outperform HIMSELF in difficult (LACS) situations as opposed to regular situations.

This is biased for 2 reasons:

1. It is unfair to compare a hitters LACS numbers because he is under far more pressure to perform.... the human body has a more difficult time performing certain activities while under pressure... such as hitting a golf ball, or swining a baseball bat.

2. You tend to face better pitching in LACS. Of course, starters are less likely... but, in non LACS managers are far less concerned about the idea match up.

Clutchness to me (and I may just have the word wrong) simply implies that said individual handles a pressure situation better than other hitters.

If that means, he simply decreases in ability less severly than other hitters, then he is still clutch, though its just a counter intuitive example.

RacersEdge

04-30-2005, 04:44 PM

And why wouldn't a person "turn on" this clutch ability in non-clutch situations?

Obviously, I'm not a cluth believer, but if I tried to argue for it, I would use Rivera with the Yankees..

GrekeHaus

04-30-2005, 04:53 PM

If everybody is consistent over the long run, then neither of your arguments hold. If you're facing better pitching and everybody maintains about the same average, then either everybody is hitting better against better pitching, or the pitching really isn't any better. Hell, if you're playing the Twins, Gardenhire is liable to put Mulholland in there, so you'll be facing much worse pitching than normal. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

If you're talking about comparing hitters against one another and their averages are roughly the same in LACS, then the "clutch" hitters will actually just be the hitters that are better in general, so there's no extra value in attributing the term "clutch". If I were in a LACS situation, I'd rather have Jeter hitting for me than Luis Rivas, but it has nothing to do with Jeter being more clutch, it has everything to do with him being a better hitter.

CallMeIshmael

04-30-2005, 04:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
And why wouldn't a person "turn on" this clutch ability in non-clutch situations?

[/ QUOTE ]

again... clutch could simply be proportionately smaller deterioration of skill in pressure situations.

I mean... if two hitters true averages vs a certain pitcher were 300, but, in very high stress situations, one would hit 292, while the other 256, the first is clearly more 'clutch' than the second, though he shouldnt 'turn on' his clutchness, because he does better in regular situations

Just because his stats go down in pressure situations, doesnt mean he is not 'clutch'... clutch is relative

mr pink

04-30-2005, 05:01 PM

please stop, youre hurting 2+2

CallMeIshmael

04-30-2005, 05:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you're talking about comparing hitters against one another and their averages are roughly the same in LACS, then the "clutch" hitters will actually just be the hitters that are better in general, so there's no extra value in attributing the term "clutch". If I were in a LACS situation, I'd rather have Jeter hitting for me than Luis Rivas, but it has nothing to do with Jeter being more clutch, it has everything to do with him being a better hitter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this... clearly.

But... do you think the following situation is possible:

1. Two hitters (A and B) who have stats such that you are indifferent between the two in a given non pressure situation.

2. You have a preference between the two in a pressure situation?

This is, IMO, the definition of clutch...

Again, I will contend that it is IMPOSSIBLE to say, with any real confidence, that player X IS clutch

For example... if two players have true winrates of 2.0BB/100 and 2.05BB/100 (in the same games), it would be impossible for anyone to accurately state that the latter is better than the former, but he clearly is.

This sort of thought applies to the above scnenario. Though it is almost impossible to prove it, I feel very strongly that there exists two players A and B such that the scenario is true.

jason_t

04-30-2005, 05:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
please stop, youre hurting 2+2

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the lighter side of 2+2. It's fun and interesting. Plus this thread needs a flame next to it.

Should I just fold this flop fearing quads?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: I am UTG+2 with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, I raise, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, UTG 3-bets, UTG+1 folds, I cap, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (25.50 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, I....

CallMeIshmael

04-30-2005, 05:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Plus this thread needs a flame next to it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've SOOO been thinking that since we hit like 70

GrekeHaus

04-30-2005, 06:08 PM

this is a situation where open folding is clearly correct.

Klepton

04-30-2005, 06:42 PM

that was me with K9o, but i liked it better when i you coud still see the chat box, i was talking some mad smack yo

mr pink

04-30-2005, 08:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

please stop, youre hurting 2+2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[/ QUOTE ]

sarcasmmmmmmmmm much?

you're both a couple of nits.

CallMeIshmael

04-30-2005, 08:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
sarcasmmmmmmmmm much?

you're both a couple of nits.

[/ QUOTE ]

And pink owns...

mr pink

04-30-2005, 08:20 PM

and the flame is on

jason_t

04-30-2005, 08:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

please stop, youre hurting 2+2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[/ QUOTE ]

sarcasmmmmmmmmm much?

you're both a couple of nits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good save.

CallMeIshmael

04-30-2005, 08:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
sarcasmmmmmmmmm much?

you're both a couple of nits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good save.

[/ QUOTE ]

MASSIVE re-ownage.

(and I've quit feeling guilty about bumping this UNBELIEVABLY pointless thread)

KDawgCometh

04-30-2005, 08:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
that was me with K9o, but i liked it better when i you coud still see the chat box, i was talking some mad smack yo

[/ QUOTE ]

I was laughing real hard when you came in with that name, and sat right down next to jason. priceless

KDawgCometh

04-30-2005, 08:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
sarcasmmmmmmmmm much?

you're both a couple of nits.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good save.

[/ QUOTE ]

MASSIVE re-ownage.

(and I've quit feeling guilty about bumping this UNBELIEVABLY pointless thread)

[/ QUOTE ]

please. I'm always willing for a good baseball discussion. If some of the other posters don't like it, then don't open this thread. Since it looks like we have a very good amount of baseball fans then I say, thread on

Klepton

04-30-2005, 09:02 PM

no that wasn't me with the name, although i was laughing at it...i'm not that clever

also how cool am i that my pp name has "teddy" in it?

jason_t

04-30-2005, 09:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
no that wasn't me with the name, although i was laughing at it...i'm not that clever

also how cool am i that my pp name has "teddy" in it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Join the club of 8237 other PP players with "Teddy" in their name.

spamuell

05-01-2005, 10:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
no that wasn't me with the name, although i was laughing at it...i'm not that clever

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read most of the thread, do you know who it was yet? I do because I know who is from Stanmore UK, but I'm not telling if it's not in this thread.

KDawgCometh

05-01-2005, 12:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no that wasn't me with the name, although i was laughing at it...i'm not that clever

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read most of the thread, do you know who it was yet? I do because I know who is from Stanmore UK, but I'm not telling if it's not in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

awwww come on. Its been a hot topic of discussion, and it'll make all of us laugh. please for all that's good tell us

jason_t

05-02-2005, 12:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
no that wasn't me with the name, although i was laughing at it...i'm not that clever

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't read most of the thread, do you know who it was yet? I do because I know who is from Stanmore UK, but I'm not telling if it's not in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

awwww come on. Its been a hot topic of discussion, and it'll make all of us laugh. please for all that's good tell us

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, please tell.

CallMeIshmael

05-02-2005, 12:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't read most of the thread, do you know who it was yet? I do because I know who is from Stanmore UK, but I'm not telling if it's not in this thread.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense dude, but...

I can understand not saying who it is (and we dont know) because you dont want to break trust.

BUT... telling us you know it is but that you arent going to tell is pretty immature. Its not cool to taunt others with secrets.

oreogod

05-02-2005, 12:49 AM

Holy crap by the time I finished reading this thread i totally what the original point was.

jason_t

05-03-2005, 11:25 PM

Villain is a maniac and I'm not a nit.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: I am MP2 with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, I raise, CO calls, 3 folds.

Flop: (5.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (2 players)
I bet, CO raises, I 3-bet, CO caps, I call.

Turn: (6.75 BB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif (2 players)
I check, CO bets, I call.

River: (8.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
I check, CO bets, I call.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB

Results in white below: 
I have Td Jd (one pair, queens).
CO has 6h 5h (one pair, queens).
Outcome: I win 10.75 BB.