So, you're telling me you beat TPTK....... [Archive]

PokerBob

04-29-2005, 08:33 PM

I've got no read on this dude.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP3 calls, Hero raises, UTG folds, UTG+1 3-bets, MP3 calls, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (10.66 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, MP3 calls, Hero ?????????

Fnord

04-29-2005, 08:55 PM

He could be jamming a draw. I'd rather just call the flop 3-bet and re-evaluate on the turn. No way I fold.

mr pink

04-29-2005, 08:56 PM

either you're drawing dead or to 3 outs and probably gonna have to dodge a club on the river, so possibly 2.

i think you can let this go on the turn.

Fnord

04-29-2005, 08:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]

i think you can let this go on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is Ed Miller going to have to chime in here and kick your ass? I think this qualifies as TPTK in a big pot.

Pil Sung Do

04-29-2005, 09:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
He could be jamming a draw. I'd rather just call the flop 3-bet and re-evaluate on the turn. No way I fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do party players often bet out with just a draw on the turn after it's been capped on the flop?

I think without reads I call the three bet and fold to a turn bet if I don't improve. But everyone calls me weak/tight /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

private joker

04-29-2005, 09:03 PM

I don't like the flop cap. I would call it and raise a safe turn planning to fold to a 3-bet. That charges him for a draw, but more likely he has JT and is protecting his hand against draws -- and betting for value against guys with TPTK that just don't want to let their hand go.

It's MP3 that's on a draw. Looks like Hero's beaten.

mr pink

04-29-2005, 09:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Is Ed Miller going to have to chime in here and kick your ass? I think this qualifies as TPTK in a big pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

i wish ed would stop by, but not for that reason exactly /images/graemlins/grin.gif. you really think hero is winning this showdown unimproved over 15% of the time?

PokerBob

04-29-2005, 09:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I think without reads I call the three bet and fold to a turn bet if I don't improve. But everyone calls me weak/tight /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That's cuz that is what your line is, IMO. But I tend to suck.

Fnord

04-29-2005, 09:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]

i wish ed would stop by, but not for that reason exactly /images/graemlins/grin.gif. you really think hero is winning this showdown unimproved over 15% of the time?

[/ QUOTE ]

Without a read, YES!

Also consider that you can often find a river fold if a crub hits.

Jaden

04-29-2005, 09:12 PM

I put him on either trips, or two pair. He could be semi-bluffing his draw(s), but without a read on him its hard to tell.
I would either fold the turn, or call it down all the way. Given that you have no reads on this guy, I would probably call it down in this situation, since the information you gain from the player(s) in this hand might be useful in the rest of the game.

mr pink

04-29-2005, 09:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Without a read, YES!

Also consider that you can often find a river fold if a crub hits.

[/ QUOTE ]

given the action, i'd be inclined to fold without a read that says this guy is an aggro nutbag.

Fnord

04-29-2005, 09:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]

given the action, i'd be inclined to fold without a read that says this guy is an aggro nutbag.

[/ QUOTE ]

Recreational players (given that Bob has no read and I know he runs PT +PV it's a pretty good guess) run funny lines often enough that I see no compelling reason to fold here. I just don't fold good hands in somewhat big pots for a single bet without a read, especially on draw heavy boards.

Pil Sung Do

04-29-2005, 09:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Quote:

I think without reads I call the three bet and fold to a turn bet if I don't improve. But everyone calls me weak/tight

That's cuz that is what your line is, IMO. But I tend to suck.

[/ QUOTE ]

My point of view is that I would rather miss one or two bets and win and find out my opponent is overplaying his hand, than lose the maximum because I didn't give him enough credit for having what he is representing.

Wait, that means I call down... forget my previous statement. I call down /images/graemlins/blush.gif

New001

04-29-2005, 09:38 PM

I'm always a little more careful with a J and a T are on the board together, because so many barns play JTo and JTs from any position. I would call the flop 3-bet and either call down or fold UI on the turn.

ErrantNight

04-29-2005, 11:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My point of view is that I would rather miss one or two bets and win and find out my opponent is overplaying his hand, than lose the maximum because I didn't give him enough credit for having what he is representing.

[/ QUOTE ]

these three things are not necessarily inextricably linked...

private joker

04-30-2005, 12:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I put him on either trips, or two pair.

[/ QUOTE ]

He can't have trips; there's no pair on the board. I'd put him on a set, maybe.

Pil Sung Do

04-30-2005, 04:27 PM

I don't understand. What do you mean?

edtost

04-30-2005, 04:55 PM

this is the point in the hand where ed starts calling down.

Nick C

04-30-2005, 05:16 PM

When UTG+1 doesn't let the flop cap slow him down, I think you most likely have 0-3 outs.

Against an unknown, I would prefer to see a showdown less expensively and would probably start calling down after the flop 3-bet.

This line only saves 1 SB, but your chances of being ahead when UTG+1 leads the turn are better if he's not doing so in response to a flop cap by you.

The flop cap starts looking more attractive to me if you don't feel committed to a showdown.

PokerBob

04-30-2005, 09:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I've got no read on this dude.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (9.33 SB) J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP3 calls, Hero raises, UTG folds, UTG+1 3-bets, MP3 calls, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (10.66 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
UTG+1 bets, MP3 calls, Hero ?????????

[/ QUOTE ]

I folded. I gave the guy JT or at least 2-pair. Had we been HU, I think I call him down, but the other guy was drawing IMO, which filthified one of my A outs and counterfeit outs. Needless to say, the A /images/graemlins/club.gif hit the river, UTG+1 bets, MP3 folds. I suck.

sthief09

04-30-2005, 09:46 PM

stop folding TPTK

PokerBob

04-30-2005, 09:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
stop folding TPTK

[/ QUOTE ]

ok

jason_t

04-30-2005, 10:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
stop folding TPTK

[/ QUOTE ]

ok

[/ QUOTE ]

Just played. No read.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: I am MP1 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, I raise, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, I raise, Button calls, SB 3-bets, I call, Button calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets, I raise, Button folds, SB calls.

River: (12 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets, I call.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has As 2d (two pair, tens and twos).
I have Jd Ah (two pair, jacks and tens).
Outcome: I win 14 BB.

Nick C

04-30-2005, 10:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Just played. No read.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: I am MP1 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, I raise, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, I raise, Button calls, SB 3-bets, I call, Button calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets, I raise, Button folds, SB calls.

River: (12 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets, I call.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has As 2d (two pair, tens and twos).
I have Jd Ah (two pair, jacks and tens).
Outcome: I win 14 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, you weren't readless for long.

PokerBob

05-01-2005, 03:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
stop folding TPTK

[/ QUOTE ]

ok

[/ QUOTE ]

Just played. No read.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: I am MP1 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, I raise, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, I raise, Button calls, SB 3-bets, I call, Button calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets, I raise, Button folds, SB calls.

River: (12 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets, I call.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has As 2d (two pair, tens and twos).
I have Jd Ah (two pair, jacks and tens).
Outcome: I win 14 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Why the stop-n-go?

imported_leader

05-01-2005, 03:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the flop cap. I would call it and raise a safe turn planning to fold to a 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line a lot here.

imported_leader

05-01-2005, 03:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Why the stop-n-go?

[/ QUOTE ]

He's playing for low.

Nick C

05-01-2005, 03:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
stop folding TPTK

[/ QUOTE ]

ok

[/ QUOTE ]

Just played. No read.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: I am MP1 with J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
2 folds, I raise, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
SB bets, I raise, Button calls, SB 3-bets, I call, Button calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
SB bets, I raise, Button folds, SB calls.

River: (12 BB) T/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets, I call.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Results in white below: 
SB has As 2d (two pair, tens and twos).
I have Jd Ah (two pair, jacks and tens).
Outcome: I win 14 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Why the stop-n-go?

[/ QUOTE ]

It does face Button with two cold again, which could have its merits if Button is holding, say, AQ or Q8s.

Also, if Button has a flush draw, it's better to make him call two on the turn than two more on the flop (SB might check to Hero on the turn if Hero caps the flop).

Nick C

05-01-2005, 03:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the flop cap. I would call it and raise a safe turn planning to fold to a 3-bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like this line a lot here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have a big problem with this line, but I think we really need to be considering the drawbacks of these turn raise-fold lines more than we sometimes do on these boards.

If, for instance, Villain has JT and 3-bets the turn with it, then folding to that 3-bet is bad, as the pot has gotten so big by this point that we should call and hope to spike an ace.

Edit: . . . well, so long as someone else who's still in the hand at that point doesn't hold something that cuts into our ace outs significantly enough.

imported_leader

05-01-2005, 03:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have a big problem with this line, but I think we really need to be considering the drawbacks of these turn raise-fold lines more than we sometimes do on these boards.

If, for instance, Villain has JT and 3-bets the turn with it, then folding to that 3-bet is bad, as the pot has gotten so big by this point that we should call and hope to spike an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know if a call would be good there assuming MP3 is still in the pot. It would be 17-1. With 3 outs we are good, but we don't really have that many outs. UTG+1 could also have 77 here, but he is not the real problem. MP3 could easily have a flush draw or even worse KQo, which would leave us drawing dead.

Nick C

05-01-2005, 03:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't have a big problem with this line, but I think we really need to be considering the drawbacks of these turn raise-fold lines more than we sometimes do on these boards.

If, for instance, Villain has JT and 3-bets the turn with it, then folding to that 3-bet is bad, as the pot has gotten so big by this point that we should call and hope to spike an ace.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't know if a call would be good there assuming MP3 is still in the pot. It would be 17-1. With 3 outs we are good, but we don't really have that many outs. UTG+1 could also have 77 here, but he is not the real problem. MP3 could easily have a flush draw or even worse KQo, which would leave us drawing dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

You responded before I edited. Anyway, I agree that calling a 3-bet would be problematic.

Mostly, I just wanted to say that I think raise-fold turn lines get recommended too often on this forum. Sure, the 3-bet gives you information, but the pot also gets bloated and, as a result, sometimes you should go ahead and call anyway, despite that information, especially when you still have potential outs.

imported_leader

05-01-2005, 04:00 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You responded before I edited. Anyway, I agree that calling a 3-bet would be problematic.

Mostly, I just wanted to say that I think raise-fold turn lines get recommended too often on this forum. Sure, the 3-bet gives you information, but the pot also gets bloated and, as a result, sometimes you should go ahead and call anyway, despite that information, especially when you still have potential outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you general sentiment. If this pot was HU, bet/folding the turn would be problematic as you say because you're getting 13.5-1 on your 3 outer with the river betting to come.