drawing 4 or 5 in draw poker

[slimeywater]

DRAW POKER
wen u are in the big blind and there are limpers you have a free draw
you have absolutly nothing to draw to and are going to draw 4 cards
clearly if you have an ace you will draw 4 to it
but at what point do u not keep a card n discard 5 cards
ie do u keep a single king
do keep a single queen
do keep a single jack
thank you

[Al Mirpuri]

I would not draw four to anything lower than a king.

However, remember that cat hops (a three card straight flush) are playable.

[stripsqueez]

like lots of draw scenarios the practical far outweighs the technical when considering drawing 4 or 5

heads up i never draw less than 3 unless i have say no better than J7 high - if more than heads up then i will draw 4/5 more often - sometimes i draw 4 to an A or a K, never lower, but i prefer to draw 3 to something like K10 than 4 to a K

once you draw 4/5 you are horribly exposed post draw

stripsqueez - chichenhawk

[schubes]

I don't think there's anything wrong with drawing 4 or 5. Who cares if you are exposed? You aren't calling a bet unless you improve, and showing your weakness encourages unexperienced players (the type who limp to you in the BB) to bet pairs you will beat. They know they probably have the best hand so they think they should bet. If you improve to a mediocre pair, or aren't sure if they autobet postdraw, you might have a tough decision but that's poker.

[crabbypatty]

this is one of my favorite scenarios. i mean i have a hand i would probably have thrown away and i can draw 4 or 5 cards and maybe make an incredible hand. the best part is when i do nobody expects it. i think it just matters who it is that limped it to you. if you know that it is the sb who constantly limps with shorts but, would have raised with big pairs or better then you draw 4 to any paint. if you don't know your opponent then you should draw 4 to a king. (you should also be more ready to muck a pair of kings postdraw). if you are against multiple players if you have no reasonable cathop, remember a cathop is no more powerful than a pair of jacks(and that is playing with the joker), and you have an ace then draw 4 otherwise draw 5.

it's up to you if you want to be the player who likes to complete the sb and then draw 4 to the ace. i personally would prefer that <font color="red"> YOU </font> play that way. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

as far as being exposed. that is a good reason to draw 3 or to raise predraw and see if they will lay it down. you could also draw 1 or rap pat.

[Tom Bayes]

I will mostly repeat others advice:

If there are multiple limpers and you are not heads-up, then I will draw 4 to an A or K and five otherwise. In this situation, I don't think there's much point in trying to hide your weakness. You are just hoping to catch a big hand on your 2nd try. I've won tons of hands catching 2 pair or trips or even pat hands after discarding 5.

It's a harder and more interesting decision heads-up. The decision then is often dependent on what the opponent limps with. If this person limps with short pairs or will complete in the small blind with any pair or stuff like AK/AQ, then I'll draw 3 to any 2 cards ten or more-often pairing paint will be good enough in this situation. If the player routinely limps with draws, then you can often win with your unimproved high cards if they miss (especially if it's a goober that draws at low straights).

If the opponent will muck low pairs and only limps in with high pairs, then I'd draw 4 or 5 if the person is difficult/impossible to bluff, but 3 if the player is a weak-tightie that would muck any pair if they fail to improve.

[bigpooch]

First of all, let me state that you shouldn't routinely draw
four or five when you are heads up (or even when the small
blind completes after a button limper) to your ace or king
unless you intend to pay off with a hand like 22A (except
when you know you can't possibly win).

When you are heads up, even with the SB and are facing a bet
post-draw after you have drawn 4 (or 5), you must pay off
with 22 against someone who sometimes bluffs in this spot.
If you are not comfortable with this (as many players won't
be!), you should probably often draw three to your hands,
even if you hold something like QJxxx. It's psychologically
more difficult for some opponents to bluff into you when you
draw three instead of four.

At the other extreme, if there are three or more opponents
after the draw, draw to your ace or king high (if there is
some chance a pair of kings will win after the draw) unless
you have something like As Ts 9s 3h 2h where you would draw
to your three-flush.

There are many in-between situations where you would like to
know something about your opponents.

Examples:

1) You hold KJ832 versus a limper in the cutoff. If you
know from your experience playing this opponent that he can
hold a hand less than JJ, you would draw three to KJ.

2) You hold AT765 versus a limper utg and the button. The
player utg you have never seen play anything less than JJ
and the button is a new player. Here, you simply draw four
to your ace since you have no chance of winning if you only
make a pair of tens (forget the longshot straight!).

Drawing four or five:
=====================

Now, suppose your hand is truly pathetic and you are not
heads up with the SB (if you were, even if your hand were
really pathetic, you could still draw three to your top two
cards, even with as low as something like T9, since the SB
can often have a hand like AT or KQ and you don't want to
get outplayed if you make a better no pair unless you want
to pay off with AK as well!). First, you have to keep in
mind the idea of pairing your top card. If you think there
is even a remote chance that you will win by pairing that
card, you keep it, no matter how pathetic it is! Suppose
the lone limper you are facing could have a pair of 99 to
JJ from your experience and you hold J7652. Here, you must
keep your jack in case you make a pair of them!

In multiway situations, it seems much harder for just one
pair to be good, but the same idea applies when you hold a
queen or jack. When you hold a ten high or less, you are
basically giving up except on a miracle draw, so drawing
five when you have a nine high or lower seems reasonable.
Keeping a ten isn't terrible in most multiway situations and
it's hard to believe you give up much by keeping it against
three or more opponents.

[schubes]

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, let me state that you shouldn't routinely draw
four or five when you are heads up (or even when the small
blind completes after a button limper) to your ace or king
unless you intend to pay off with a hand like 22A (except
when you know you can't possibly win).

When you are heads up, even with the SB and are facing a bet
post-draw after you have drawn 4 (or 5), you must pay off
with 22 against someone who sometimes bluffs in this spot.
If you are not comfortable with this (as many players won't
be!), you should probably often draw three to your hands,
even if you hold something like QJxxx.

[/ QUOTE ]

What??

What is the basis for this advice? The limper will nearly always start with 22 beat or have a draw that has 20ish outs to beat 22.

Lets pretend we live in a world where the SB routinely limps with a high card (they don't, most players fold high cards, and some sometimes steal raise). Because the limper will sometimes bet without a pair we must always call?

And let's pretend we are dealing with some hypothetical limper such that calling with 22 is correct. Why would we ever want to discourage their huge mistake by drawing 3?

This wouldn't bother me so much if you didn't always post in such a didactic tone.

[crabbypatty]

well ty for your well thought out response BP. i however do not agree that you are giving very good advice this time.

[ QUOTE ]
First of all, let me state that you shouldn't routinely draw
four or five when you are heads up (or even when the small
blind completes after a button limper) to your ace or king
unless you intend to pay off with a hand like 22A (except
when you know you can't possibly win).

[/ QUOTE ]
why would i feel a need to call a big bet with 22 here?(or something similar) i wouldn't have called a raise predraw with this trash so i wouldn't call now. unless i thought i could move them off their hand and if so i should have raised predraw.
are you suggesting that i need to protect my blind? i hope you realize that blinds no longer are your chips. blinds are gone, they are a necessary expense, forget them and you won't have to worry about calling with garbage to try and save them. habitual blind defenders are consistant losers. if you are trying to help players in this forum then you should not be advocating blind defense just for the sake of calling bets to be the table sheriff or something. if however the idea is to get more players to defend their blinds with garbage and improve YOUR win rate, then i agree whole-heartedly with you!!

[ QUOTE ]
It's psychologically
more difficult for some opponents to bluff into you when you
draw three instead of four.


[/ QUOTE ]
while this may be true. isn't the idea to draw 4 to an ace or king and have the same loose player try and bluff into your pair of aces or kings?(or better)

[ QUOTE ]
Now, suppose your hand is truly pathetic and you are not
heads up with the SB (if you were, even if your hand were
really pathetic, you could still draw three to your top two
cards, even with as low as something like T9, since the SB
can often have a hand like AT or KQ and you don't want to
get outplayed if you make a better no pair unless you want
to pay off with AK as well!).

[/ QUOTE ]

all that i can see that you are saying is that you are worried about being bluffed off a pair, any pair, after the draw. why would i want to draw 3 to T9 and have to worry about calling a big bet with TT or 99, when i could very well be up against AA, TTA, KK, QQ or even 6633? why not draw 5 and see if you can make a hand? why am i worried about being outplayed here? i have a trash hand. if i am worried about being outplayed i should raise predraw and play the hand from there. if you are suggesting that we need to protect our blinds to this extent then you should be more proactive about doing it. passivity will just have you "get outplayed" more often.

not trying to be incredibly antagonistic here but, some of the ideas you have put in here just don't seem to work out for me.
btw, i still don't believe that you are making $1K/week playing 1/2 draw at paradise. without posts like the one stating this i think i would be better able to not want to dive in and take swings at this kind of stuff /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[bigpooch]

Wasn't it Zadeh that mentioned quite plainly why drawing
four is sometimes weak?

In situtations where the BB is facing a possible draw (not
when the limper has called with position and drawn three:
it's rare to find a player that would just have two high
cards rather than a pair), you sometimes have to pay off
with a hand that beats a bust. When drawing four cards to
an ace, the top 5/9 of hands include not only 22, but also
AK high and they represent the calling hands when facing a
bet (after drawing four cards).

When the SB completes and draws three it may be just a draw
to some high cards so you can also call with the bluff
catching hands as above and if a player is willing to do so
after drawing four, that's fine. Now the bluff calling
frequency is 1/2 instead of 5/9 but in any case, 22 falls
within the top half of hands after drawing four.

[bigpooch]

Apparently, you forgot that the BB has a free play. If so,
he often has to draw to rags and when facing a bet from a
player that is possibly betting a busted draw, calling with
22 is very reasonable: it's in the top half of the hands one
ends up with after drawing four.

When drawing four, there is also the additional question as
to which hands you would bluff with and it seems more likely
(from what I have seen) the BB will be called more often
after drawing four cards than after drawing three cards.

[schubes]

You are letting your pseudo-game theory cloud your judgment here. You are in the situation of calling one bet to win two. You need to be the winner more than a 3rd of the time here. When SB limps and draws 3 - they already have 22 beat far more than 2/3 of the time!

Like I said before if they are limping with high cards enough to make calling with 22 better than folding, they are making such a huge mistake by auto betting it is a crime to discourage it by drawing 3.

[crabbypatty]

[ QUOTE ]
Apparently, you forgot that the BB has a free play.

[/ QUOTE ]
what? that is the whole point of this discussion. i have infinite odds to make a hand why not give myself the best possible chance to win. drawing to J9 is not going to accomplish that. i can just as easily make aces as i can jacks or 9's.
and as to Zadeh. Yes when you are against a possible draw you are going to have to call sometimes but, pay attention here. Ace high is almost a strong as 22. so if they have a busted draw i will win about the same amount of time no matter which hand i have. if my opponenent paired most likely i will be beat and the only bad time is when they were drawing to a broadway. and i would lose with most aces here also(good time to have 22-whoopee /images/graemlins/shocked.gif). personally i couldn't care less if my opponent bluffs at me when i have 22. ALMOST ALWAYS I WILL LAY MY HAND DOWN. 99.9%

[ QUOTE ]
When drawing four, there is also the additional question as
to which hands you would bluff with and it seems more likely
(from what I have seen) the BB will be called more often
after drawing four cards than after drawing three cards.

[/ QUOTE ]
as to bluffing. like i said earlier, shouldn't i be raising predraw and now i can draw 3 or less. this should reduce the chances of being called even more than just checking and drawing 3 to junk.