curious about my play on 5th

[gumpzilla]

This is from a Paradise 2/4 stud high game. I wish the converter took these hand histories; this took me more time than I care to admit to set up.

Seat 1: [xx xx] 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif : folds
Seat 2: [xx xx] 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif : brings in_calls
Seat 3: [xx xx] T /images/graemlins/heart.gif : calls_calls
Seat 4: [xx xx] 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif : fold
Seat 5: [xx xx] 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif : fold
Hero: [A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] K /images/graemlins/spade.gif : completes
Seat 7: [xx xx] 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif : calls
Seat 8: [xx xx] 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif : calls

4th st.

Seat 2 [xx xx] 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif : call
Seat 3 [xx xx] T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif : call
Hero: [A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] K /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif : bets
Seat 7: [xx xx] 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif : call
Seat 8: [xx xx] 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif : call

5th st.

Seat 2 [xx xx] 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif : call_call
Seat 3 [xx xx] T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif : call_call
Hero: [A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] K /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif : raises
Seat 7: [xx xx] 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif : bets_calls
Seat 8: [xx xx] 6 /images/graemlins/club.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif : folds

6th street
Seat 2 [xx xx] 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 2 /images/graemlins/club.gif A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif : calls all-in
Seat 3 [xx xx] T /images/graemlins/heart.gif 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif K /images/graemlins/club.gif 4 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif : calls
Hero: [A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/heart.gif] K /images/graemlins/spade.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif 5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/diamond.gif : bets
Seat 7: [xx xx] 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/club.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif : calls

I bricked on 7th, it got checked around.

I raised on fifth with the intention that it would probably buy me a free sixth street and maybe scare somebody off; however, Seats 2 and 3 were calling stations to a certain extent, so that element of the plan might have been of questionable validity. Catching the king threw me off, because I felt like I had to lead on 6th once I was first to act. How do other people feel about this?

Also, I'm a stud newbie, so feel free to criticize my decision to play these cards on 3rd as well.

[jon_1van]

This is a turbo fold on 3rd. You might try to steal the antes if seat 3 didn't limp...but he did, so fold.

I think you might be able to play this if the ante was a dollar...but I bet it isn't.


4th street is a clear check.

on 5th it is bareable to raise. But since 2 people have board pairs I would just call because you probably don't have the best draw. You have nothing else going for you but this draw.

on 6th you can check or bet. I'd probably bet. Kings up might be best on the river. Your flush most definetly will be if you hit it because your opponents don't seem to have much and what they might be drawing at is pretty dead.

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
This is from a Paradise 2/4 stud high game. I wish the converter took these hand histories; this took me more time than I care to admit to set up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I did that once. Then I switched to Empire. /images/graemlins/grin.gif
I believe greenage plans to add Paradise to the supported sites though.
And, don’t play this crap, but you already knew that.
I like the raise on 5th, and I wouldn’t feel too bad about leading on 6th. Betting a 4-flush and an over-pair can never be that terrible; you’ve got lots of outs.

[Roland]

[ QUOTE ]
4th street is a clear check.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? He’s got three over-cards and a three-flush. I’d want to see 5th, so I’d bet.

[jon_1van]

If I was sure someone else would bet....sure betting would be great. But everyone else just called on 3rd. And I just caught a suited connecting card. So there may be a decent chance that I can get a free card (even from the front).

Realize only catching a spade on 5th gives me a hand I'm even reasonably happy about. Catching a big pair in a 5 way pot isn't really giving me a big EV hand for the betting on 5th, 6th, and 7th. Also, if I get a free card here and then I get a big pair I'm much more likely to be able to thin the field because my board will be pretty scary

There is a much better augument for betting if you think someone might fold (and thus hitting a big pair would be valueable). But I don't think that is gonna happen here. It's low limit. It's still a cheap street. Betting won't do a thing

[Roland]

Excellent analysis Jon – You win /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Andy B]

AK is a big starting hand in hold'em. It's not so big in stud. As others have indicated, you could play this one for a steal, but someone has already limped, and if I recall correctly, this game has no ante anyway. Anyway, since no one is showing a damned thing, I limp with this hand myself, but the guys who advocate folding are probably right.

On fourth, you have a strong board with a little something to back it up, and you are looking at a bunch of weak boards. This is a clear bet in my opinion.

The raise on fifth is OK, I think. You likely have more than 25% pot equity, and you can maybe take a free card on sixth. It is highly likely that you act last on sixth as well.

Of course, you pair the King. So much for acting last. I think you have to bet here. It should get people to fold. It didn't, but life's like that sometimes. There is absolutely no sense in bluffing at a dry side pot, so you have to check the river.

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
Realize only catching a spade on 5th gives me a hand I'm even reasonably happy about. Catching a big pair in a 5 way pot isn't really giving me a big EV hand for the betting on 5th, 6th, and 7th.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm more interested in catching spades than in pairing my high cards too, but I certainly wouldn't complain if I made a big pair. If it is a five-way pot, you're probably going to have more than 20% equity. Say it's 30%. This may not seem like a great situation, especially when you actually play hands like this, because losing 70% of the time doesn't seem very profitable. But you are getting a 3:2 overlay, which is pretty damned good.

[gumpzilla]

Except for 3rd, these were pretty much my thoughts at the time (though I wasn't thinking about my bet on fifth in terms of having >25% pot equity - I haven't played enough limit yet to have these things ingrained).

As for 3rd, I agree that my hand wasn't so great. However, the limper was a fishy calling station and didn't necessarily need to have anything to be limping here; I was not particularly intimidated by his limping in, so I thought raising might thin the field. The ante in this game is .25, the bring-in is $1. If I'm not worried about the limper, is raising here acceptable, or should I still just muck it?

[jon_1van]

[ QUOTE ]
On fourth, you have a strong board with a little something to back it up, and you are looking at a bunch of weak boards. This is a clear bet in my opinion.


[/ QUOTE ]

What exactly are you trying to accomplish with this raise? I must admit I really disagree here. If you bet you are commiting money to a pot when you are behind. You will only get at most one fold. You are making folds on 5th less likely if you catch a big pair. THERE WILL BE A SHOWDOWN. Can't we wait until there is some chance that well can win at that showdown to be putting money in. I realize it is very hard/strange to check when we catch this good. But I really don't think we can win this hand with outright aggression at limits this low.

[Andy B]

I limp myself. I think that raising is the worst option.

[jon_1van]

In holdem we all know that AK vs 77 is virtually a coin flip. Since AK is so rarely behind in holdem we might think that it is a decent hand in other games.

But in stud ::

If I have high cards in stud and I am up against a low pair. I have to improve AND AT THE SAME TIME my opponent must brick. In holdem since we share cards if I get an A or a K on the flop it is much less likely for my opponent to trip up. And if there is a board pair it helps me just as much as it helps him. But in stud this is not the case. Every street where I get help I have to hope that my opponent didn't get help. on 5th street I might get a have AKxxA but by 5th my opponent has x7788. Here getting the Ace did help me. But I am not a favorite to win the hand. This is the main reason why unpaired high cards look good but aren't good when you don't get to play them as a steal or as a limp.

[Andy B]

It's not a raise, it's a bet. I wouldn't advocate raising with this hand. I'm not sure who you're scared of. By betting now, I think you might well set yourself up to buy the pot later on. It seems to me that the stud games on Paradise aren't hideously tight at this level.

We have seen 15 cards. There are nine spades, three Aces, three Kings, and three Queens left. That makes 18 out of 37 unseen cards that will make me like this hand well enough on fifth. If everyone folds on fourth, that's a great result. If everyone calls, I think that's a good result, too. If it's somewhere in-between, I think it's still pretty good. I do think that this hand is worth betting on fourth.

I think that advocating checking with this hand is similar to advocating limping pre-flop with AKo in hold'em.

[jon_1van]

Ok...I ran a few sims on twodimes.net...this hand is alot better than I thought. Your equity ranges between .30 and .22 depending on what you assume your opponents have.

Your right...bet 4th...calls or not you are happy