Perseus
04-29-2005, 03:34 PM
In a recent hand by Pokerbob the question of the value of JTs has come up, and I decided to make a new thread concerning the hand. This was the response I just read after I had said that JTs is a very powerful hand...
"Not to hijack this thread too much, but JTs must be the most overrated hand in poker. Yes, it's the best straightmaking hand there is, but it's certainly not the best suited connector because it has very little high card value. In fact, in a multiway hand, you stand a very good chance of being dominated when you do pair up one of your cards.
And always making the nut straight? This is one of those great 'fun facts' that everybody learns when they pick up the game. Of course you lose to a bigger straight about as often as you lose to a bigger flush, which is almost never.
As for JTs being the best suited connector, I'd much rather have AKs, KQs, QJs and even gappers like AQs, AJs, and KJs.
In the hand under discussion, if I was pretty sure I was going to get 5 or more people seeing the flop for only 2 bets, then I can see the call. But if everybody left to act folds, or one of the 5 people left to act 3-bets, then I'm really kicking myself"
My response to this is that JTs is still an extremely powerful hand. I consider it to be the second best suited connector out there (behind AKs) because of how many ways it can hit you on the flop.
You can make the straight, and it is the nut straight. You can make a flush, and it is a pretty high flush. You can also hit a J/10/two pair/three of a kind, and though unlikely, they are still possibilities. It is also very easy to get away from if the flop completely misses.
I think JTs is the most powerful connector IF you can get away from mediocure flops where you hit your pair and still know to fold.
As for almost always never losing to a higher straight or flush, I think this is something to strongly consider. While it isn't often it happens, when it does it can cost you a lot of money. Maybe I've been just on a downswing lately but quite a few of my straights in the last fews days have lost to higher straights.
Also, I this this is a fine hand to play when the flop is being bet and raised because there is less chance your opponents have J or 10 in their hand then a K or Q if you had played KQs. To say hands like KJs are better to play in a large multiway pot than J10s is not correct IMO.
JTs is a hand I love to play, especially in the case of Pokerbob's hand where there were two limpers and a raise. With one of the blinds most likely staying in if you cold-call, you are going to see the pot 4-6 handed. Even if both blinds fold and it's only a 4 way hand you are still getting good value for the hand, but you have to know when to lay it down and when your remaining outs are good.
This last part is something I am having trouble with, as my initial response to pokerbob's hand was to call the flop. However, after reading the responses and thinking more about the hand I realize folding the flop is the best option.
Please comment with whether you guys agree or disagree, as playing these types of hands correctly are the difference between good players and average players.
Thanks
Jon
"Not to hijack this thread too much, but JTs must be the most overrated hand in poker. Yes, it's the best straightmaking hand there is, but it's certainly not the best suited connector because it has very little high card value. In fact, in a multiway hand, you stand a very good chance of being dominated when you do pair up one of your cards.
And always making the nut straight? This is one of those great 'fun facts' that everybody learns when they pick up the game. Of course you lose to a bigger straight about as often as you lose to a bigger flush, which is almost never.
As for JTs being the best suited connector, I'd much rather have AKs, KQs, QJs and even gappers like AQs, AJs, and KJs.
In the hand under discussion, if I was pretty sure I was going to get 5 or more people seeing the flop for only 2 bets, then I can see the call. But if everybody left to act folds, or one of the 5 people left to act 3-bets, then I'm really kicking myself"
My response to this is that JTs is still an extremely powerful hand. I consider it to be the second best suited connector out there (behind AKs) because of how many ways it can hit you on the flop.
You can make the straight, and it is the nut straight. You can make a flush, and it is a pretty high flush. You can also hit a J/10/two pair/three of a kind, and though unlikely, they are still possibilities. It is also very easy to get away from if the flop completely misses.
I think JTs is the most powerful connector IF you can get away from mediocure flops where you hit your pair and still know to fold.
As for almost always never losing to a higher straight or flush, I think this is something to strongly consider. While it isn't often it happens, when it does it can cost you a lot of money. Maybe I've been just on a downswing lately but quite a few of my straights in the last fews days have lost to higher straights.
Also, I this this is a fine hand to play when the flop is being bet and raised because there is less chance your opponents have J or 10 in their hand then a K or Q if you had played KQs. To say hands like KJs are better to play in a large multiway pot than J10s is not correct IMO.
JTs is a hand I love to play, especially in the case of Pokerbob's hand where there were two limpers and a raise. With one of the blinds most likely staying in if you cold-call, you are going to see the pot 4-6 handed. Even if both blinds fold and it's only a 4 way hand you are still getting good value for the hand, but you have to know when to lay it down and when your remaining outs are good.
This last part is something I am having trouble with, as my initial response to pokerbob's hand was to call the flop. However, after reading the responses and thinking more about the hand I realize folding the flop is the best option.
Please comment with whether you guys agree or disagree, as playing these types of hands correctly are the difference between good players and average players.
Thanks
Jon