hand 1 for review

[davidross]

Curious about which line to take here. I'm afraid I'm getting too cute when I start running bad, but it seems to me every time I 3 bet I just kill all my action so I'vve been trying to play big hands a little slower lately.

I'm in the BB with 9 /images/graemlins/club.gif 9 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

UTG+1 limps, CO raises, button calls, SB folds, and I call.

FLop 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif

I lead out, 2 calls and the button raises. First decision. Do I want to 3 bet this? I just called here.

Turn 5 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

Again I bet out, but this time I only get 2 callers. I didn't want to check it to the button because I was afraid of it getting checked around, but I was really hoping for another raise.

River 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet, got raised and re-raised and had to fold. THey both had the 7, (77 and K7).

[krishanleong]

Looks perfect to me.

Krishan

[BottlesOf]

I'd 3-bet this preflop much more than not.

[ISF]

I think I would threebet this preflop unless the limpers were 50+vpip. As well there are enough draws on the flop that i would threebet the flop. I would save trying to keep people in big multi way pots with a set for uncoordinated rainbow flops.

[Wynton]

I don't understand why not 3-bet the flop. Is this hand so strong that we don't want to scare anyone away, even with the possible flush draw?

[Your Mom]

3 bet the flop. I could see reraising preflop as well -either way is fine.

[Alobar]

If I've decided im not checking the turn out of fear of the free card, im definately 3 betting this flop. Most players are going to call the 2 cold.

And when you have someone (CO) who raises PF then just calls on a clop like this, more than likely isnt calling a single turn bet anyway unless he hits. And the button raising means hes eitehr got a made hand he will go to showdown with or is going to see the river because hes chasing a draw. Im babbling, but what im trying to say is, 3 betting this flop isnt going to "kill your action" cuz youve got one player who isnt going to give you any anyway, and youve got one player who is along for the ride no matter what.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
If I've decided im not checking the turn out of fear of the free card, im definately 3 betting this flop. Most players are going to call the 2 cold.

And when you have someone (CO) who raises PF then just calls on a clop like this, more than likely isnt calling a single turn bet anyway unless he hits. And the button raising means hes eitehr got a made hand he will go to showdown with or is going to see the river because hes chasing a draw. Im babbling, but what im trying to say is, 3 betting this flop isnt going to "kill your action" cuz youve got one player who isnt going to give you any anyway, and youve got one player who is along for the ride no matter what.

[/ QUOTE ]

Alobar is right. The default move should be to 3-bet and lead. Special circumstances sometimes warrent calling and leading.

Krishan

[MAxx]

My hand is stuck on the raise button on that flop.

I got a couple reasons for this (please knock my reasons down at will):

1) I got the best hand. This is a superdrawsy board, and several turn cards are potentally going to slow me down so I wanna get cookin now. If something scores for a drawing hand on the turn and they raise me on it... I can now safely slowdown for the river redraw.

2) If I just call the buttons flop raise, what is my plan? Well, the problem in my mind is that I want to c/r turn but cannot give out the freebie. C/r in most cases is not a viable play for me here, unless I know flop raiser will lead turn almost all the time. So you are left with a leading the turn and hoping someone raises you. If noone raises you, it kinda sux b/c you could have lead turn after 3betting flop. You say you may be killing your action, but as pot gets bigger while killing your action... at some point you are more interested in taking it down.

I really don't see much reason to play sets slow on drawsy boards, and I don't do it.

EDit: It appears Alobar beat me to the punch... makeing this another slow posting redundancy by yours truly.

[ggbman]

This should be an auto-3 bet preflop. I don't mind your line post flop, although an argument could easily be made for 3 betting the flop, but you want K7 raising you if he hits the turn. Anyway, just tough luck with the turn and river, your postflop play was fine here.

[Guido]

I wouldn't 3-bet this preflop because it accomplishes nothing except that you maybe lose UTG, the other 2 won't fold. Your position isn't good either. I want to see the flop for just 1SB and take it from there.

I like to play sets fast especially when the board is coordinated like this one. So I would bet out and 3-bet almost every time. You have a monster so why do you want to to give people a good call with a gutshot? They aren't making any mistakes when you let them call just 1SB, make it 3. The rest of the hand is standard but you have to learn to not slowplay on coordinated boards like this.

You seem to focussed on getting people in a hand and because of that you don't give them a chance to make a mistake which is bad poker IMO.

Thanks,

Guido

[krishanleong]

I don't like a preflop 3-bet either.

Krishan

[tolbiny]

"I think I would threebet this preflop unless the limpers were 50+vpip."

What?

three bet unless original raises has super tight raiseing standards. The limpers having absolute trash in their hands makes this raise stronger, not weaker.

[Guido]

This should be an auto-3 bet preflop.

And why is that?

Guido

[tolbiny]

I am going to echo what has been said for the most part, because you really need to increase your aggression. Three bet this flop 100% of the time. This one is such a no brainer. Just click raise.
Preflop i favor the three bet. Some players like to call, i think three betting is superiour- but with your aggression problems you need to start looking at hands like this as three betting hands.

Also you just posted 3 hands without one read. NOt even a "typical as far as i can tell" or "passive" note. Is this SOP for you?

[bunky9590]

David,

Three bet the damn flop, theres a bazillion draws out there, get the money in now, the stop and go smells like a big hand anyway, and if you were gonna stop and go, why the hell not hammer the three bet on the flop?

I'm gonna guess you wanna see a safe turn card? I could care less to the turn card completes both draws, I can still redraw out on that, get the bets firing on the flop, and bet the turn, the stop and go sans three bet flop is just bizarre.

[tolbiny]

[ QUOTE ]
the stop and go sans three bet flop is just bad poker .

[/ QUOTE ]

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
the stop and go sans three bet flop is just bad poker .


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that too.

[7ontheline]

[ QUOTE ]
3 bet the flop. I could see reraising preflop as well -either way is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Grisgra]

Decent sized pot, draws are out there, this is a flop 3-bet unless you feel like getting cute and checkraising the turn after a blank. Just calling the flop raise and then leading the turn . . . this line made me twitch. I think the merits of a turn checkraise are half decent, but given there are so many callers in there on a drawy flop, trying to get rid of inside-straight-draw idiots on the flop isn't a bad idea either.

[DrGutshot]

there is no reason to not three bet the flop if your plan is to bet out the turn.

-DrG

[mindflayer]

Humm noticed that you dont have any player stats.
First hand or just playing by autopilot?

3 bet preflop doesnt get you anywhere, your not losing anyone.
UTG+1 limps, CO raises, button calls, SB folds, and I call

If the button had folded PF I would 3bet this 100%

FLop 9 6 Q

I lead out, 2 calls and the button raises. First decision. Do I want to 3 bet this? I just called here.

If the CO had Raised and button called then call and go for a CR on the turn.
[ QUOTE ]
I didn't want to check it to the button because I was afraid of it getting checked around,

[/ QUOTE ]
If you knew this ahead of time 3bet and lead.
If the CO had Raised and button called then call and go for a CR on the turn.
BTW there is 6.5BB in the pot at this time. To me this is a big pot and I want to win it right NOW. (lose utg+1 and co)
I would be just as happy if they all folded.

[tolbiny]

Because we have a good hand, and our opponents are morons /images/graemlins/smile.gif/

UTG= please, take my money.

C/O riases- if hes good - i want to isolate a weak limper- if hes bad, who cares?

Button, coldcalls. "I have twice as much money to give away as utg"

Me- 99, 5-10 party sh, no reads given? I raise.

[Schneids]

[ QUOTE ]
there is no reason to not three bet the flop if your plan is to bet out the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why you aren't winning as big of pots as you should David.

Plus, when you bet-3bet the flop there WILL be times you bet the turn and the flop raiser again raises you on the turn so you can 3bet again (assuming a safe card to 3bet on turn).

Edit: Alobar also provided a really good analysis of why you should 3-bet the flop.

[davidross]

Honestly 3 betting pre-flop never even entered my mind. I think I want JJ or better to 3 bet here, but I'm willing to listen to arguments. I think this comes down to your comfort postflop with being out of position with overcards on the board. How do you proceed postflop when the flop comes KJ6? Do you just push until someone pushes back?

[davidross]

3 betting the flop is my normal play here. I think this is an example of "subtle tilt" that I've been on during the -150 bb sessions I've had a lot of lately. I never seem to get paid off on my good hands so I try to make more of them than they deserve. 3 betting is really the only right play here. As far as 3 betting pre-flop I'd love to know how you proceed post flop if you don't flop a set.

Unless I have a specific read or stats on a player I infer typical. I don't have PT numbers on most of the players yet. If a table lasts long enough I start to get a read on some of the guys, but your point is a good one. I need a better read in order to make correct decisions.

[davidross]

Actually I wasn't worried about the safe turn card, I was trying not to lose the 2 guys I figured were drawing nearly dead between me and the raiser, thinking I might get another bet and a half out of them by going this way, and maybe get a chance to 3 bet the turn.

[Grisgra]

For what little it's worth, I don't raise this preflop either. Against three other opponents, one of whom raised, and I'm out of position . . . I just really doubt that I'm kicking that much butt here. My pot equity is about 31% against four unsuited overcards (I remember that from a tournie on TV /images/graemlins/smile.gif ) and there are six cards I'm up against, plus maybe a higher pocket, and god knows what else. I'd rather play for a set, or keep the pot small enough so that when I checkraise the flop it might be easier to shoo people away. (Though admittedly people would believe a flop cr more from a preflop 3-bettor.)

[bicyclekick]

3 betting pre-flop is a mistake IMO. Not a big one, but calling is the best play.

what's with this "3 betting the flop is killing my action" business. I think a lot of your problem lies here. Start 3 betting way more hands on the flop. Also, don't be scared to keep blasting hands like this. It's where you're missing out on some significant money.

[Victor]

if u are goin to lead the turn then you should 3bet the flop.

[tolbiny]

I def three bet with TT here.

One of the reasons i three bet with TT and 99 is that i find it is easier to knock players off high cards later- they find it much more difficult to call the flop and/or turn With KT/QJ when they miss- usually they have 6 outs when this happens and are making a mistake pots that are already 4bb preflop (more if i three bet).
You can also gain a decent amount of information from c/o hand weather he caps or not- and finally you will push UTG out sometimes.

[davidross]

"Start 3 betting way more hands on the flop"

I think this is the key statement. I haven't been getting full value for my big hands lately and maybe it's just that my opponents haven't had any real hands.

FWIW,I 3 bet this flop 95% of the time. THis play was a misguided effort to try something different.

[BK_]

congrats on the decision to post some hands

i hope everything ends well