Another cry for help

[davidross]

hey guys,

I'm looking for help here. After running bad (3 months of break-even poker) at 15/30 I decided to play some 5/10 6 max and try and find my game again. I had a number of people review some hands for me and it became clear that most of my problems were to do with post-flop aggression or rather my lack of it.

SO I've been playing at 5/10 for 2 weeks now (32K hands) and it started real well, posting wins for 6 straight days (I haven't had 3 winning days in a row in 3 months so this was a miracle) and winning slightly over 2 BB/100 hands. THen the bottom fell out again, and I've had losses in 6 of the last 8 days again, including 2 huge losses ($1600 and $1300) in the last 3 days, bringing my win rate back down to 0.25. I've had so many huge losses ( > 100 BB's in one session) lately that I know I'm getting cold decked, but the overall long term results indicate that I'm probably losing more than I should in the bad runs, and winning less than I should on the days where I run well. I'm perplexed as to how I could go from a 2BB winner to break even so suddenly, if the games are getting that much tougher why hasn't everyone taken a dive?

Anyway, I'd like to post some stats, and then some hands for review and hope that people can help me try and find my leaks. It just seems like every decision I make lately is the wrong one. If I check when the scare card rivers, I find out I missed a bet, and if I bet it I get raised.

I don't know how to copy an image from PT so I'll just post in my stats here. THey are virtually identical to my stats from a year ago when I played 5/10 regularly.

VPIP - 24.3
VPSB - 31.68
SFAH - 30.19
FldSB - 78.41
FldBB - 48.41
W$wsf - 37.68
bb/100 - 0.25
WSD - 33.93
W$SD - 52.10
PFR% - 12.9

Aggression PF - 0.92 flop 2.16 turn 1.79 river 1.37 total 1.4

ANy other stats I should be posting?

Thanks for any help

[Lost Wages]

David,

You aren't getting to showdown enough, your PFR is too low and your postflop aggression is too low. Based on your stats I would classify you as slightly weak tight. Sorry for the brutal honesty, just trying to help. Hope things turn around for you.

Lost Wages

[krishanleong]

Do the analysis suggested in this post. Post the results. Alternatively you can post a screenshot of your misc tab. One with "show only showdown hands" checked and one without. It also helps to see positional stats. General info tab is mostly useless.

The obvious item is your PFR is way low. Should be 16+.



link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=2236527&page=0&view=colla psed&sb=7&o=14&fpart=1)
Krishan

[ISF]

It looks like you may be overlimping a bit much your pfr is a bit low especially considering your vpip is 24. As well your agression factors do look a little low this may explain your low WSF, but you may just be running badly. What is your attempt to steal blind number?

[tolbiny]

David-
like the others have siad- your preflop raise is too low, your postflop aggression is also to low, looks like you lack confidence in your hands. When your postflop aggression is increased it will lead to a higher wtsd as you will end up with position and checking behind on the river.

Now for some random speculation
I have been playing 5-10 since jan, so i don't know what the games were like for you, but lately i have noticed an increase in the frequency of "Donkbetting"- that is betting into someone who has show aggression- ie you raise preflop from the cutoff, bb calls- and calls your flop bet, and then bets into you on the turn. This sort of situations will screw you if you aren't aggressive- how you respond with PP's with one or two overcards, overcards, or tp/ medium/weak kicker- you will end up calling two bets when behind but only getting that one bet when ahead if you are just calling these bets with you med/weak made hands.

[Alobar]

is your comment about how you can go from a 2BB winner to a break even player, a serious one? I've read critisisms many times before from other posters about your lack of poker understanding, that statement sure rings alarm bells for me.

As for the stats, You are defending your blinds a tad to much. You also arent near aggresive enough, and need to raise more PF. In combination with being looser than normal out of the blinds, thats a sure fire way to bleed chips. Your WtSD and W$SD ratio is pretty bad, this could be from bad beats, but I suspect you prolly just arent going to showdown enough.

anyway, my .02.

[driller]

What should the ratio of WtSd and W$SD be?

[Packerfan1]

Hey DR,

You and I are in the same spot. So maybe we can help each other along with the input from our friends here at 2+2.

After beating the 5/10 and 10/20 6max consistently for 15 months, I also am just getting killed in 2005 - actually LOSING .25BB/100 on the year so far. I hate to leave these games (especially because it seems that there are 10X as many SH tables online vs full games nowadays), but I'm seriously wondering if I have enough LAG in me to beat the 10/20 anymore. My stats are similar to yours me(you):

VPIP - 23.07 (24.3)
VPSB - 37.43 (31.68)
SFAH - 29.73 (30.19)
FldSB - 85.71 (78.41)
FldBB - 53.94 (48.41)
W$wsf - 34.09 (37.68)
bb/100 - -0.25 (0.25)
WSD - 32.58 (33.93)
W$SD - 55.98 (52.10)
PFR% - 13.41 (12.9)
Aggression - PF 1.13 (.92), F 2.97(2.16), T 2.75(1.79), R 1.37(1.37)

Compounding the problem is frankly I just don't know where I should be playing right now. This means I'm hardly playing at all! My goal for 2005 was 150,000 hands at 2BB/100 ($40) for $60K on the year. I'm so freakin gun-shy right now, (even tho my bankroll is fine) I have played less than 13,000 hands over the first 4 months - almost 36,000 hands behind schedule. This of course makes a few bad days seem worse.

I've just got to get back at it, but I just don't know where I should be playing. Seems like every 2+2er plays in the Party 15 games - how can that be any good? I'm apprarently too "weak tight" to continue in the 6max 10/20 game. Well where the heck else can I make $40/100? Im actually considering working on my tournament game (again, I usually don't have enough gamble in me to do well in tournaments) for the rest of the year since the money is so huge there if you can get lucky and pop a decent sized event you'll make your year... but I've always considered poker to be just another daily job, grinding out the money on a consistent monthly basis.

/images/graemlins/frown.gif This all being said, I'm don't feel I'm in a position to offer much help... except to let you know that I'm in that depressing place too right now (and so are many other "good" players).

So here's a shoulder for your latest cry and a "Keep your chin up". Keep playing your best, keep examining your play, and the cards will even out (for both of us) over the year - they always do. Stick around. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Pack

[IlliniRyRy]

"If the games are getting that much tougher why hasn't everyone taken a dive?"

It seems like there are a lot of winning players right now that are going through bad losing streaks, but I don't think it's because the games are getting tougher. On the contrary actually, I think the caliber of players these days (especially in the 5/10 6max) is near the lowest that it's ever been, and with good reason given the sick popularity of hold 'em. You're just going through some huge variance right now David, everyone knows you're capable of beating the game. Plug the minor leaks that you do have and I'm sure things will turn around. I guess the only leak I can see for sure is your play in the BB, looks like you're too loose. Call less and fold/raise more. FWIW, I'm in these games too, I'm sure we've crossed paths a few times. What's your screen name?

[naphand]

Escape from Party.

Play on other sites, the change of scenery and different player mix will freshen you up, force you to concentrate and help you sharpen your game.

Tournament play at least once a week is what the Doctor recommends (if I had a Doctor who played poker, I am sure he would prescribe this). You get to precisely limit what you lose, and are forced to read players and boards very well and take some sizeable risks with your stack.

I have always (except once) found moving to another site to be beneficial when getting stale/cold-decked.

[SomethingClever]

Dude, you are on tilt. I've read all your recent posts, and the mindset that you're in is simply not the right one for winning poker.

Drop WAY down to where its almost play money for you (like to 1/2 6m) for a day or two and really experiment with adding some aggression and getting your confidence back.

[imitation]

There are alot of really awful 2p2ers playing 5/106m at the moment as well I think.

[Grisgra]

Your stats have "weak tight full ring player" written all over them, I'm afraid. Well, maybe not weak-tight for full ring, but certainly for SH.

I don't think you defend too much in the blinds, except maybe the SB to raises. Your PFR is scarily low, as are your postflop aggression stats (which should be more like 3/3/1.75). Icky.

[Robk]

these stat threads can only be so helpful. how much you win is determined almost entirely by how well you play postflop. one could soundly beat the 6max games with quite tight or loose stats. changing your pfr from 13 to 16 may be completely correct but its not going to transform your winrate. and telling someone to change their WSD or aggression factors is almost pointless since they dont know what spots to adjust their play.

take half a grand or whatever and get lessons from sklansky, hell fix you.

[mindflayer]

I was inspired by your blogs when I started online poker and Virtually Everything that you did, I copied, and in the same order. When I made the transition from full ring games to Short handed, I had stats of 23/12 yours at full ring are 24/13??
I had to constantly say to myself (OUT LOUD) while playing hands especially HU, Agression, Agression, Agression.

I drove my numbers up to 30/20 and made my way into winning 5/10 SH. I have not run into any type of losing streak like yours because I can only play about half as much. It gives me time to re-evaluate my play afte a losing streak. I have almost always found that My number one problem when I hit a losing streak was a drop in confidence and agression, which was reflected in weak tight numbers.
I knew in full ring tight is right and playing even weak tight I could grind out a small win, leaving some chips on the table, but by consistenly posting small wins, I could regain my confidence and win by sheer volume.
In SH playing weak tight is just an invitation to get steamrolled.

[ QUOTE ]
I discussed strategy with soda and my other shorthanded friend, and made some adjustments to my game. My beloved baby pairs and suited connectors went into the waste basket. There is very little room to limp in these games. Every time I limp someone raises. Mind you every time I raise someone 3 bets it seems. I was clearly marked right away as fresh meat and I had to fight back. Tuesday was a little better, I only lost $230, but I could honestly see an improvement in my play. I stood my ground better and didn’t get pushed around too much. I found that sometimes I was getting 3 bet and raised on the flop with hands like 75s. I can only imagine what they thought of my play…”Just raise him, he’s gonna fold unless he makes trips or better”.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

My natural “weak-tight” game that serves me so well in the loose/passive ring games just gets killed shorthanded. I suspect a lot of other posters will be in the same boat.


[/ QUOTE ]
web page (http://members.cox.net/cuff4u/david6.htm)


Take a couple pieces of advice from yourself.. and one from me.
Agression, Agression, Agression

[sthief09]

you've shown in the past that you can take criticism and you're obviously looking for help, so I'll be honest with you. I don't know how someone who plays as long as you can be such a poor preflop player. I don't know if you just don't have that killer instinct in you or what, but you're doing way too much calling and not nearly enough raising. you're defending a lot, but how good are you at blind defense? you're weak tight and when you aren't getting cards, you're extremely vulnerable to getting run over.

also, you need to realize how small a sample of 32k hands is. it's not like you were a 2 bb/100 winner and are now a .25 bb/100. in reality you're probably somewhere between the two

[Wynton]

Allow me to add that I recently dipped my toes into 5/10 party games, six max, after spending most of my time at 3/6 stars. And while I've only played a handful of times, I thought the play at the 5/10 was actually softer than stars 3/6. At least it was no better.

One other thing: someone else asked about the proper ration of VP$P and preflop raise. I'd like to know this also.

[davidross]

Attempt to steal blinds is 32.2.

[geormiet]

Are you playing 4 tables using playerview/GT?

I am coming to the conclusion that doing this hurts my play more than it helps.

The players are getting better - the entire poker playing world is improving collectively.

If you are playing solid poker, 4 tables, while depending only on GT or playerview, I don't think it is enough to win.

Cut down on the number of tables to 1 or 2, and turn off gametime. Once you have good notes on ALL of the players, add another table.

I have 2 big 213T samsung monitors, and even then, the most 6 max tables I can play with solid reads is three. I've been going through a funny cycle: I play 2-3 tables, do well and build confidence. Then I attempt to play 4-6 tables, and my results take a dive. I struggle for a while, until I admit to myself I can't do it, and I head back to playing 2-3.

[Schneids]

Hey David,

I didn't read the other responses yet so I may repeat someone but anyway here's my .02:

Going over a few hands with another 2p2er and talking about some 6-max stuff with him we basically found the main thing he needed to do was go to showdown more and value bet more rivers. Since he's been working on that his results have improved significantly. It looks like the same could be the case with you based on your ~33WSD.

Likewise, I question your 2:1 VPIP:PFR ratio that seems much too big of a gap for this game. I think you need to be limping/overlimping less and raising limpers more.

[davidross]

Everyone seems to agree that my PFR % is low, is anyone willing to go through a block of hands and suggest specific hands that I should be raising with that I'm presently calling, or conversely would anyone with a higher PFR% let me go over their hands to see what I can find?

[tolbiny]

"I have almost always found that My number one problem when I hit a losing streak was a drop in confidence and agression, which was reflected in weak tight numbers."

Precisely the same for me- i said it out loud only yesterday when i was talking to a non poker player about the game.
"When i am playing badly, its because i am too passive."

[Wynton]

David,

In another thread, I offered to trade hand histories for a session with people and then discuss afterwards. I think it's a great way to learn.

I'd be happy to do that with you, so long as you recognized that I'm relatively clueless here. I still think it's productive, though.

[davidross]

"is your comment about how you can go from a 2BB winner to a break even player, a serious one?"

This comment has been made a few times and I just don't understand it. I played for 21 months (Around 1 million hands) at various limits and made over 2 BB/100 hands at all of them. Now suddenly over 3 months I'm at around 0. I didn't forget how to play, so unless I'm running unbelievably bad, the only conclusion I can reach is that the games have gotten much tougher. WHat I don't understand is that why haven't I heard the smae thing from other players if the games are that much tougher? THis is what I'm struggling with.

I suspect the fact that so many people now have PT stats available that didn't before, that I'm being targeted because of my weak/tight numbers, wheras before it wasn't so obvious. I'm not getting paid off on my big hands, and I'm being pushed around a lot on my mediocre hands. I have no doubt that I need to make adjustments now, but I do still wonder how a style that worked quite well for so long, has suddenly stopped working.

[davidross]

The problem I have with this is the rakeback numbers. THat 2K a month has become really important for me.

[davidross]

That's what the 5/10 games were for. It worked for a week but man I'm down right now.

[davidross]

I agree, so where do I go to find the proper situations to bump up the aggression? THis is exactly what I'm trying to get to. Obviously I can't figure it out for myself.

[J.R.]

if you raise more perflop you'll have initiative and be checked to more ofetn, meaning you will naturally be betting more often than calling someone else's bet. post your position stats the the breakdown in the more detail tab of you bet check raise fold %s for each street, that may help but you just have to look for spots to put raises in really and take note of any decisions where you thought a riase might be justified or conceivable and then post the hand.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
"is your comment about how you can go from a 2BB winner to a break even player, a serious one?"

This comment has been made a few times and I just don't understand it. I played for 21 months (Around 1 million hands) at various limits and made over 2 BB/100 hands at all of them. Now suddenly over 3 months I'm at around 0. I didn't forget how to play, so unless I'm running unbelievably bad, the only conclusion I can reach is that the games have gotten much tougher. WHat I don't understand is that why haven't I heard the smae thing from other players if the games are that much tougher? THis is what I'm struggling with.

I suspect the fact that so many people now have PT stats available that didn't before, that I'm being targeted because of my weak/tight numbers, wheras before it wasn't so obvious. I'm not getting paid off on my big hands, and I'm being pushed around a lot on my mediocre hands. I have no doubt that I need to make adjustments now, but I do still wonder how a style that worked quite well for so long, has suddenly stopped working.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no idea how you ran at 2bb/100 with those numbers, quite frankly. I know a milion hands is a significant sample size, but damn. Also, how could you not know to raise more at 6max? 12%?!?! my pfr at full table is around that if higher. How the hell can you limp half your hands in 6max? There just aren't that many limping hands. You're definately missing something very important about poker...and i think it was stheif who hit on it...that killer instinct. Also, 1.4 aggression?! yikes. That's painfully low. The games may have gotten tougher, but my guess is the players who aren't all of a sudden doin poor are adapting with the changing game conditions, and not just wondering WTF.

[Girchuck]

Post some of your usual overlimping hands after one limper.
Lets see if we can upgrade most of them to raises or folds.

[davidross]

My pre-flop play really hasn't changed much over the years. I guess it's a case of "If it ain't broke...don't fix it". Now I guess it's broke.

I'm not naturally aggressive unless I have an edge. I guess what I need to realise is how much an edge position is even without premium cards. I'm hoping from this exercise that someone will be able to give me more specifics on which kind of hands that I am currently calling with, that they raise with. The hands that I limp behind with are usually small or medium pairs and connectors, suited or otherwise. Clearly for my aggression numbers ot go up pre-flop I need to be raising some of those, but my natural tendency is to see the flop cheap with them and wait for the flop to hit me.

I understand that 32K is real small, it is only 2 weeks. But I see the same trends already that I've seen for 3 months and it concerns me.

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, so where do I go to find the proper situations to bump up the aggression? THis is exactly what I'm trying to get to. Obviously I can't figure it out for myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am terrible at coming up with rules of thumb, but here are a couple of pf thoughts:

Never open limp (this one is a widely held belief for 6 max, and I am sure you already know it).
Never overlimp if there is only one limper. I never really thought of this explicitly before, but I am having a hard time coming up with a hand I would overlimp with when there is only one other player who volutarily put money in, and he just limped.
Don't get involved in a battle of the blinds from the small blind without a good reason. The structure in the 5/10 game really discourages battle of the blinds IMO.
Don't cold call from the sb without ar least one coldcaller already in, and then only rarely. (With two cold callers in, it is much more attractive).
Don't call a raise from the BB if you are HU without a good reason. (Note: if the sb open raised you are always at least halfway to a good reason.)

[tolbiny]

"The hands that I limp behind with are usually small or medium pairs"

I raise 55 and up against 1 typical limper at 5-10 sh.

[davidross]

You've made these points repeatedly to me, and I don't know what else to tell you. I did it.My pfr in full ring games is 9% so I've bumped it up by 33% already. I don't limp first in very often, usually just to change things up, so I believe the difference between my numbers and the more aggressive guys is the limping behind.

[bicyclekick]

[ QUOTE ]
My pre-flop play really hasn't changed much over the years. I guess it's a case of "If it ain't broke...don't fix it". Now I guess it's broke.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not "I guess it's broke"...no 'guess'. It's broke, David. I can tell you're not completely convinced...

IMO, It looks like your post-flop play is hurting you more thna your pre-flop play. tooooooo much calling.

[davidross]

Behind 1 limnper I will limp with 77 - 22, suited broadway cards, suited connectors down to 76s. If I'm on the button or CO I will probably limp with KTo, QTo and JTo too. 99 and 88 I will limp behind if I'm in real EP hoping for a few more callers, but will raise from CO or button.

[Girchuck]

fold small pairs below 5, raise others. Dump all unsuited connectors, except raise sometime with QJo and all the time with KQo. Dump suited connectors below T9s after one limper.

[bicyclekick]

raise those offsuit hands vs weak limpers(which is usually a given, cause they limped), and also raise 88,99 from anywhere.

[censored] i'm raising 55 utg at most 6max tables. Schneids raises 4's and showed me it was profitable over a pretty significant sample (although probably not significant enough...but good enough to convince me).

[davidross]

I agree the real problem lies post-flop, but it's quite possible that the post flop problems come from pre-flopp mistakies. THe reason I was able to make 2bb with lower pre-flop aggression was simply because I think I played pretty well post-flop. I always seemed to know where I stood in the hands. Lately I have no clue, and my opponents have me squarely on a hand.

I'm not stupid, I will figure this out, but there is something to the "can't teach an old dog" adage.

[bicyclekick]

Yeah, playing those hands I talked about properly would help your post-flop numbers I think. Short-handed/higher-limits rewards having the lead. Having them have to react to you versus you reacting to them. ALso rewards position greatly. If you were raising those KT's etc, you would be putting more preasure on the limpers to make hands instead of limping and then having them maybe blast you off a better hand postflop cause you don't want to take your overcards too far.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
Never overlimp if there is only one limper. I never really thought of this explicitly before, but I am having a hard time coming up with a hand I would overlimp with when there is only one other player who volutarily put money in, and he just limped.

[/ QUOTE ]

I limp in this spot with hands like 22-55, 45s-67s, 86s. So it's not never, but it's pretty rare.

[Girchuck]

release 22-44 after a limper a majority of the time. These low pairs are only good for stealing. Raise other pairs because they offer some isolation strength. Some suited broadways want to be raised. KJ, QJ, and better want to be raised all the time. Suited connectors are too low. cut them at least at 98s and probably higher because the games are aggressive and you'll need high card strength to be aggressive. Remove KTo, JTo and QTo. These hands are trouble especially if you don't have initiative, and raising with them is marginal.
In SH, your main goal is to isolate the limper who is hopefully loose. Habitual open-limpers are mostly loose. So, it doesn't matter where you are, with 88 and 99, raising is the only play.
So, it follows, that mixing up your play by open limping invites aggression. If your opponents do not 3bet a lot, you cannot go wrong by never open-limping.

[Jeffage]

Basically if you don't steal pots shorthanded you will absolutely get [censored] murdered. This gets even more pronounced as you move up. It seems you took a broken full game style to a shorthanded environment where it would be even more costly.

My thoughts: Take a break. I know you need the money, but forget it. You've lost way too much already. Stop today. 3 days, no poker. Come back fresh, but do understand if you play how you are playing, you will lose at these limits online. This isn't fishy live play where weak tight will get you above break even...online, weak tight will make you a loser. Re-read your books and apply them. If you don't adapt and change to a profitable style for the games you're in, this game will eat you alive. I know my style of play has changed dramatically over the years.

Jeff

[fnord_too]

[ QUOTE ]
but my natural tendency is to see the flop cheap with them and wait for the flop to hit me.


[/ QUOTE ]

The fundamental problem with this is it only gives you one way to win the pot. There are two big reasons to raise more pre flop: The first and most obvious is that you steal a whole lot of pots where you miss the flop entirely. Say you raise an UTG limper with 89s from the CO and only the limper continues, not an uncommon result, you are going to take down the pot on most flops regardless of what comes. The other reason is that when you are playing aggressively pre and post flop, you are going to get a lot more action on your big hands. Yes, you will end up getting unwanted action and nasty check raises on some hands you miss, but you will usually have more information than your opponents so you will make better decisions in the situations where there is post flop action.

As someone alluded to earlier, you may be more worried with winning big pots. You really need to relish winning the 1-2BB pots on the flop, because that is where a lot of your profit comes from. Moreover, that aggression is what makes opponents give you action when they have only marginal hands. You want your oppontents to be thinking things along the lines of "that ahole will bet with anything, let me catch any piece of the board and I'll show him a thing or two" because what most of these people fail to realize is that when you continue in the face of resistance you can beat a marginal hand.

Another random flop thought: Three betting HU and continuing on the turn if the opponent shuts down is a very powerful play. If you don't have the goods, you will usually have to give up in the face of any more action from your opponent, but that line really seems to work people over. (Of course it really only works if you were the pre flop aggressor, or are against a very aggressive opponent who is capable of folding).

[Jeffage]

One more thing to add...I know this seems simplistic, but...Hold Em is a game where both players frequently miss in headsup pots. Putting yourself in position to steal pots without hands (including setting up turn semi bluffs, etc) is crucial to winning play.

Jeff

[bicyclekick]

Don't remove KTo, QTo and JTo. well...good postflop players can play those for a profit for sure. I'm not positive you could, but most tough post-flop players definately could. Then again, if you can't play those profitably...i think you have some serious problems post-flop.

[Grisgra]

I play these hands the way most of the others here play them. Most of the hands you describe I raise or fold after one limper. After one limper I tend to limp with 55-22, but raise with all others, raise with all the suited broadways, raise with suited connectors down to JT, fold the rest. On a really passive table I might limp with some of the other weak suited stuff, but one thing I learned when making the move to full ring is that Big Card Power is huge, and being suited/being connected is much lamer than in a full game. 76s after one limper sucks, I tend to chuck it.

My PFR is generally not much lower than my VPIP for non-blind positions.

[Silverback]

[ QUOTE ]
Play on other sites

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Tournament play at least once a week

[/ QUOTE ]

2 priceless gems from Mister Know it all.

rofl

Your basically weak, raise pre flop.

Be more conscious of your moves on the flop to get your aggression up, are you check calling draws? what u doing with overcards, checking with only 1 or 2 in the pot? Something is wrong with your shorthand game on the flop,


Sounds like you are new to shortahnd so to go in and think you can start winning at $5/$10 is maybe where you have gone wrong,

[Schneids]

If I end up not going to Madison this weekend David lets play some .02/.04 HU on Stars and I'll whip some LAGness into you. And if not, at least it'll be a therapeutic (hopefully enjoyable) moment of pokering for you.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
But my natural tendency is to see the flop cheap with them and wait for the flop to hit me.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was mine as well until I realized just how f'ing annoyed I was when I sat at a table where everyone open-raised. I realized that if I don't like it when others do it, that by default it was something I should be doing to everyone else! Face it, we all love it when we can limp in in the CO or Button with 22 or 33 or 97s or whatever after two or three weak limpers. We love it because it seems like it makes us $$, to play marginal stuff for cheap when in position.

Meaning, don't let others play marginal stuff for cheap when in position /images/graemlins/grin.gif. The bastards don't deserve it!

[Girchuck]

but you must raise all these if you play them. Limping behind is definitely the worst action to take. I admit, I am not good enough post-flop to extract value from unsuited broadways with a T, unless the limper is really fish-loose.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
Remove KTo, JTo and QTo. These hands are trouble especially if you don't have initiative, and raising with them is marginal.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm on your side on this one . . . I think that you can play okay postflop and still lose money with these -- so that while he's improving his game, folding these buggers (maybe except KTo) is just fine, and that not winning with something like QTo in non-blind non-steal situations is not a sign of horrible postflop play.

Not all of us are as good as BK /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[Joe826]

Hey Pack,

Sounds like things aren't going so well but as you know having break-even periods over 12k hands or so happens. The games aren't significantly harder, you seriously just need to play more. Unless you don't think you're playing well to begin with, that is. Try a little more 5/10 and maybe go play some 3/6 somewhere else to get your confidence back.

I remember your post helped me out alot psychologically when I was having a huge downswing during the summer. It would be damn near impossible for you to go from being a solid 10/20 winner to a 5/10 loser. Just hang in there, cut your number of tables, and play through it.

[Packerfan1]

Thanks for the comments Joe, I appreciate it. Some posters confuse "nice" with "soft", so some common understanding is a welcome change of pace. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

I really think I should make a committment back to the full tables. I've been playing almost exclusively 6max since November 2003 and I think that my "game" is just better suited to full games. Hopefully the 6max experience will have helped me there being more aggressive in SH pots.

I 3-tabled some 5/10 this afternoon (first time below 10/20 in about 6 months)- very relaxing. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

All the best,

Pack

[davidross]

I'm game if you can work it into an evening time frame. Kids soccer etc seems to take up all my day time.

BTW, thanks for all the advice from everyone, I hope it will lead to a turn around.

[sethypooh21]

Take my advice with a grain of salt, since I primarily play the Stars 2/4 game right now. However that game seems like it plays substantially similar to the party 5 in my experience.

I find that raising much more often tends to have two benefits. First, and most obviously, it gives you two ways to win. Second is that when your opponents see you raise often, they often call down with some pretty weak stuff, giving you good value for your real hands. I recognize that these points are slightly contradictory, but that doesn't make them less true.

As many people have pointed out, the majority of your earn in 6-max comes from post flop. It's much easier to play aggressively post flop in 2 or 3 handed pots then in 5 or 6 handed ones. Raise em out preflop. You do NOT want more customers with 9's or 8's in 6-max, isolate the loosey and play from there. Also, med-low suited connectors tend to be pretty crappy in six max, as the natural aggression in the game tends to reduce your effective odds.

I like Naphand's tournament advice. Any poker game played with the volume you experience can get stale at times, and its hard to play optimally when that happens. Get the neurons firing on something else for a while.

Finally, other people have mentioned it, fold your BB to steals more. Defending 55% is almost twice what it should be, IMO. Obviously, you can be more liberal if a maniac is raising from the SB, but putting extra money in with a marginal hand out of position is not the way to go.

Best of luck,
SP

[witeknite]

I limped first in at a 5-max table a couple of nights ago. I think it might have been the first time I ever did that at a short-hand table. I felt dirty.

WiteKnite

[mperich]

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, other people have mentioned it, fold your BB to steals more. Defending 55% is almost twice what it should be, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is just NOT true. 55 is SLIGHTLY higher than what is generally perceieved as optimal for a good preflop player, but nowhere near 2x as much.

Since I havent replied to this thread I think you should go to showdown a bit more and raise pf more. Also once you get some confidence back start to open up your VPIP a bit. Your postflop aggression is very near mine and I think it's fine. I think a lot of players on this forum advocate a postflop aggression level that is suboptimal.

-Mike

[Wynton]

Defending bb 55% of the time is twice too much? I respectfully disagree.

[SomethingClever]

[ QUOTE ]
Take my advice with a grain of salt, since I primarily rape and pillage the Stars 2/4 game right now.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fixed your post.

Sethypooh is a good player, listen to him.

[sethypooh21]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Finally, other people have mentioned it, fold your BB to steals more. Defending 55% is almost twice what it should be, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is just NOT true. 55 is SLIGHTLY higher than what is generally perceieved as optimal for a good preflop player, but nowhere near 2x as much.


[/ QUOTE ]

Upon reflection you are correct. Hyperbole will get you in trouble that way it seems...

[Trix]

Try this for a while:

Quit limping after one limper, most of the times it´s pretty marginal anyway and you probably do it too much, so not much is lost by folding a few of the right hands for a while.

So when UTG limps, you raise or fold when you are next in.

If there are 2 limpers ahead of you, you are allowed to limp, but not offsuit cards in the CO, raise or fold there.

Dont overlimp after one limper on the button at all. I do it a bit but most of it seem very marginal and I only do it if the blinds are extremely loose and the limper will be hard to steal from postflop.

Now this isn´t optimal, but you need to experiment with your preflop play and this will push you in the right direction I think without costing much value from lost profitable limps.

[RamGad]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude, you are on tilt. I've read all your recent posts, and the mindset that you're in is simply not the right one for winning poker.

Drop WAY down to where its almost play money for you (like to 1/2 6m) for a day or two and really experiment with adding some aggression and getting your confidence back.


[/ QUOTE ]


Coudn't agree more. I'm a currently on a one week "break." Well, I broke down yesterday, 4 days into it and single tabled 1-2 6 max. I was rusty, and got misplayed a few donkbets, but got some good reads and finished 20bb up and went to bed. It felt good.

One suggestion, that I remember a poster saying was to buy in for 50 bbs and take the gametime icon and cover up your bankroll. Don't concentrate on the short-term. If you've read enough posts on here, somewhere inside your brain, you know how to play the right way. It's just a matter of manifesting it. I struggle with this too as I am basically a break-even player this year after killing the 5-10 last year. I don't think the competition has gotten "better", but definitely more agressive. That's why reads are extra important now and 2 tabling should be perfect.

Also, I just started lurking and posting a little bit in the Psychology section. Some players are so cool-headed and don't let emotions get in the way. I wish I was that way. I wrote a post on bonus-whoring and Party related tilt on there that might help you. It acutally got one response! (Thanks Reef) First responded post in three weeks! (Did I piss somebody off?) I thought it was pretty insightful though. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

link (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=2272772&page=1&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=14&fpart=1)

Just my two cent.

[bicyclekick]

55% is about right. At least that's exactly what I've been at. I know a lot of players that are better than I who play looser than that.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
55% is about right. At least that's exactly what I've been at. I know a lot of players that are better than I who play looser than that.

[/ QUOTE ]

BK is in part referring to me, of course /images/graemlins/grin.gif. I defend my BB against a steal about 65% of the time. People at 10/20 will steal with any two freakin' cards that look vaguely coordinated. At 5/10, I think it being around 50% is about right.

[bicyclekick]

I suppose it does matter what limit you're playing. I play mostly 30/60, 50/100, and 100/200...so I guess it's quite different.

[sethypooh21]

Is it fair to say that both you and BK are much more skilled postflop in this spot then OP?

I've already issued a mea culpa for my gross exaggeration about the size of OP's error, however, given his apparent weak-tight postflop play (and probable lack of 3-betting a steal raiser often enough), I think defending less will help his results until his overall 6-max post flop skills improve.

[mperich]

65% is just too much. Being out of position with the last 10ish% of these hands is just not profitable, and likely not breakeven either, unless you are KILLING the game (4+/100)

-Mike

[bunky9590]

[ QUOTE ]
Defending 55% is almost twice what it should be, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heck my fold BB to a steal is under 50% and I'm more profitable than a whloe lot of players. Getting 3:1 on your money goes a long way if you can play postflop. rarely are you much worse than a 2:1 dog PF and are actually the fave sometimes.

My winrate shot up rapidly once I started defending MORE, not less.

[helpmeout]

Looks like you are playing a very weak/tight game.

I think you should tighten up preflop until you learn how to raise. Dont be cold calling raises with suited connectors or 2 high cards.

You should be folding in the blinds a bit more. The blind structure at 5/10 is different from 15/30 the 1/3 blinds means you should be folding much more in the SB. You are too loose defending in BB as well again smaller SB so there is less money in the pot, just fold your trash, 5/10 players wont be "stealing" too much.

For someone with such weak aggression it is suprising how low your WTSD figure is, its like you think you are making world class folds or something. Even at 15/30 if in doubt just call even if the board is scary. Dont be folding to turn raises all the time. (this is why you have reads)

Your river AF is pitiful, its suprising how many people dont bet the river enough. Weak players will call a river bet on scary boards with hands weaker than yours. Eg You have TPTK and the board is a 4 straight on the river against a weak calling station you bet here and expect to see a lower pair. Bet your 2nd pair HU against the same type of player.

You obviously have a problem with tilt, when you start losing at tables leave them. When you have a few losing sessions have a break for a day or 2.

Study the game more and read books, this is what downswings are for.

You probably want to play fewer tables as well, I'm guessing you are another rakeback junky.

Rakeback is nothing its for weak players who have poor winrates. Learn how to play instead.

[goodguy_1]

PackerFan
I always liked your analysis over the years and thought you were very solid player.I think you still are my guess is you are running poorly and being a wuss.Sit down take the heat and get your hours and hands in.I think you are too good for this but IF you give up and stop playing well you are quitting.Maybe step back down to $5-10 6MAX get back some confidence and move back up to 10-20 6MAX again.

Confidence is a huge part of poker.You need to get your confidence back and you will be fine BUT you cant stop fuggin playing man.
You are to be commended you and DavidRoss no matter what happens for being honest about your game.It is very depressing to run bad for an extended period of time..It saps you of energy but you must continue to play ..its called HEART..I think you got it ..Do whatver it takes to regain that confidence ..that means making money..who cares what it is $1-2,$2-4 $5-10 get in there and stop being a wuss.Somewhere along the line poker becomes work if you want to continue playing for a living.

[goodguy_1]

also, you need to realize how small a sample of 32k hands is. it's not like you were a 2 bb/100 winner and are now a .25 bb/100. in reality you're probably somewhere between the two

[goodguy_1]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm hoping from this exercise that someone will be able to give me more specifics on which kind of hands that I am currently calling with, that they raise with. The hands that I limp behind with are usually small or medium pairs and connectors, suited or otherwise. Clearly for my aggression numbers ot go up pre-flop I need to be raising some of those, but my natural tendency is to see the flop cheap with them and wait for the flop to hit me.

[/ QUOTE ]

David here is my take on this.Early on in your poker career you were very driven to become a better player.I think it worked for you over the last couple years but somewhere along the line you have gotten lazy.I dont really understand this because you were a model of discipline and consistency when it came to putting in hours and just working hard..But as others have said in similar threads you seem not to be focused man.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm hoping from this exercise that someone will be able to give me

[/ QUOTE ] what the heck is this?.Someone help me??That is bs ..what happened to your old work ethic you need to help yourself.
Start with a fresh slate and rebuild your game..you are definetly smart enough..you just seem complacent and it shows in your game..You can't win in fast games being complacent.Get back to work and stop fugging around.I always admired you for your work ethic foremost not any exceptional skills.The hit/miss high variance Multi-Table-Tourney play psychology is most probably also hurting your game as well if you continue to mix that into your regimen.
You need to stop treating your game like you have are some kind of special phenomenon you arent.This "natural tendency" bs is what I'm talking about.Get back to work and re-focus on proper basic strategic poker.You like to hang on to what doesnt work which is so silly.

Get back to work Good luck..you can do it!!I'd like to see you do well because you are one of the few longtime posters that shares his downtimes as well as uptimes.

[Packerfan1]

Good Advice. Thanks.

Pack

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
I suppose it does matter what limit you're playing. I play mostly 30/60, 50/100, and 100/200...so I guess it's quite different.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not even sure why you bother to grace us with your presence /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Mr. Graff]

I'd go back to full ring if I was you. Judging from your stats and your whole mind set it would seem a much better place.

[bicyclekick]

oh please. It's all the same game. I just happen to have gotten lucky for when I found poker- when in college with almost no expenses...which allowed for maximum bankroll growth...

[TJD]

Hi Schneids,

You and other posters have indicated that DR's WtSD% is a bit low. Where do you think it should be for players in this game?

T

[naphand]

[ QUOTE ]
you are one of the few longtime posters that shares his downtimes as well as uptimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is fairer to say David is one of the few posters who manages to share his downtimes in a constructive and compelling manner. There are any number of backsliders who want to whinge-post... /images/graemlins/grin.gif