Blind defense

[Guido]

Hi all,

I have been thinking about some typical blind defense situations lately. I still don't play very well in the blinds at least when I look at my results. Suppose you have KJs or AJo or something like that in the BB. The button or CO open raises and it's HU. At these forums most players will 3-bet and bet the flop. The problem I sometimes have with this, is that people will regain initiative by raising the flop and when they bet the turn again it's hard to call when you have nothing. So what about calling preflop? Then you can check-raise a lot of flops because you can represent more hands. Also when you hit, it will be harder to put you on a hand because I will also call with hands like T8s or 98o. So you will have the initiative after the flop and when they raise you on the turn you can safely fold. The problem with that is that when you check-raise a 963r flop and the turn is a jack, queen, king or ace, you will get raised very often on the turn and have to let go.

Both plays have advantages and disadvantages so why do you think one play is better than the other? Or doesn't it matter and is it just a matter of style?

Thanks,

Guido

[MAxx]

Hey Guido.

I tend to 3bet most of the time. My experience at 5/10 is that they tend to believe my BB 3-bets more often than not. Going with my overall impression here, without readily available factual support.... in general i think a subsequent flop and/turn lead tend to win the pot, unless villain has improved. Much more so than them restealing postflop. This maybe much different at 10/20, but I wouldnt know about that.

Sometimes I mix it up with a pf call and an auto flop c/r... but I generally think the pf 3bet is quicker and to the point. This could be highly player dependent/ table image dependant though.

Edit: [ QUOTE ]
The problem I sometimes have with this, is that people will regain initiative by raising the flop and when they bet the turn again it's hard to call when you have nothing.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do have A/K high. That is not always nothing... player dependant.

[ALL1N]

I only 3 bet preflop here if at least one of the following conditions are met:

-opponent is stubborn and playing back will induce excess action.
-it will make my hand easier to play postflop.
-opponent is known to check behind occasionally.

Otherwise I prefer to call and have my hand disguised.

[Sporky]

i like to 3-bet pf against most of the people opening in CO or button because the range of hands can be so big depending on the opponent. if i 3-bet pre flop and bet the flop, i find that a good amount of the time they will fold, unless of course they've hit something decent.

i'm not a huge fan of the smoothcall and c/r the flop because it seems like i risk a little more. from my experience they almost always call 1 sb after the c/r and then i'm forced to bet the turn as a follow through. at that point if they call or raise i'm feeling pretty bad about my spot. also, getting 3-bet on the flop after going for the c/r always hurts.

i feel like out of both situations when they have missed the flop, i will do better with the 3-bet pre flop. i think a lot of people call the extra bet after the c/r just out of anger and disgust to see if the turn helps them. then i have to throw another bet out there on the turn. i also think that sometimes a c/r on flop can scream "hi, i totally missed this."

my blind defense is pretty weak though. i'm interested to hear what everyone else has to say.

[imitation]

[ QUOTE ]
I only 3 bet preflop here if at least one of the following conditions are met:

-opponent is stubborn and playing back will induce excess action.
-it will make my hand easier to play postflop.
-opponent is known to check behind occasionally.

Otherwise I prefer to call and have my hand disguised.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seriously the quality of your posts lately has just been through the roof, what has taken your game to the next level? This is just so spot on. (ofcourse exactly what I was going to say /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Guido]

it will make my hand easier to play postflop.

So when is this condition met?

Thanks,

Guido

[imitation]

[ QUOTE ]
it will make my hand easier to play postflop.

So when is this condition met?

Thanks,

Guido

[/ QUOTE ]

Well logically against a loose passive player who isn't seeing many showdowns. I think it can be productive against the right aggressive players with the correct table image.

Personally I play alot of my blind defence with relation to table image, and I like calling alot out of position.

[MAxx]

[ QUOTE ]
I only 3 bet preflop here if at least one of the following conditions are met:

-opponent is stubborn and playing back will induce excess action.
-it will make my hand easier to play postflop.
-opponent is known to check behind occasionally.

Otherwise I prefer to call and have my hand disguised.

[/ QUOTE ]

care to expand on this 3 test thought?

1) ok this is pretty straight forward on the excess action
2) IMO 3betting usually leads to easier postflop play
3) what are you saying here? i don't follow but would like to understand your reason here.

Why do you value disguise here, and why do you feel 3betting undisguises your hand vs why you feel calling keeps your hand disguised?

[ALL1N]

When I say that I want my hand to be easier to play postflop, I'm basically saying that I don't want to get pushed off the best hand, and I don't want to have too work hard for my value. I'll be a bit more specific some hands.

I really like 3-betting medium pocket pairs. Having a pair that frequently has 1 or 2 overcards to it, while only 2 outs if behind (usually), I want to be able to get to the river without missing bets, but with the chance to fold if I'm behind. These hands pretty much want one bet to go in on the flop, turn, and river; you don't want to scare off a high-card calldown (especially one with only 3 outs), but you also don't want to get pushed off the best hand. I find that 3-betting preflop achieves this well - people will often get suspicious, and decide that just calling down is less hassle than raising or folding.

I also like 3-betting good kings, primarily for what follows on Axx flops. On Axx, your high card has been promoted, and you've got the best hand a good deal of the time, so always folding isn't right. Checkraising the flop has the problem of spewing chips against an ace who'll wait until the turn to raise, but still having to bet the turn a lot since so few people fold to just a flop checkraise. Calling down is a possibility too and is fine against a maniac, and calling halfway down is obviously a very fragile strategy. You can easily cause yourself to be outplayed by not having the initiative on Axx flops, which can be avoided with a preflop 3-bet.

Another point I made was that I like my hand to be disguised if possible. I'm not trying to be fancy here, I'm just saying that since it's natural to call a lot more hands here than 3-bet, a strong hand is better hidden by just calling. The other way to disguise strength would be by 3-betting weaker hands, like suited connectors, but this is not a great idea simply because I'd likely be putting in bets with the worse hand, headsup, out of position.

Richie

[ALL1N]

Thanks mate /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I've moved up to 15/30, reduced to just 3 tables, had a good think about my game while hiking the Milford track (southern NZ, a few months ago), and spent even less time on my studies. Probably a bit of all!

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
i like to 3-bet pf against most of the people opening in CO or button because the range of hands can be so big depending on the opponent. if i 3-bet pre flop and bet the flop, i find that a good amount of the time they will fold, unless of course they've hit something decent.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, totally agree. We 3 bet preflop because we have a better hand and because we want to win it on flop without battle. Its not like a Q9o guy always beceoms fancy on a K53 flop after we 3bet and bet flop.

We also 3bet preflop because we dont want them to steal on us every time, 3betting is best way to make them fold K4o on button instead of stealing.

[ QUOTE ]
i feel like out of both situations when they have missed the flop, i will do better with the 3-bet pre flop. i think a lot of people call the extra bet after the c/r just out of anger and disgust to see if the turn helps them. then i have to throw another bet out there on the turn. i also think that sometimes a c/r on flop can scream "hi, i totally missed this."


[/ QUOTE ]

Again I agree. If we 3bet and bet flop we are investing 4SB and they know we will almost always at least call their floparaise and then they have to bet turn, so if they want to bluff us they have to invest 4SB, which is a lot if u got nothing. But if we only smothcall preflop its we that will have to invest 4SB without a hand and that is pretty expensive, after already investing 2SB preflop.

There are not a lot of players, at least not at 10/20, that will 3bet preflop with weak hands. But there are a lot of players that will cr flop with nothing at all. So 3bet preflop is cheaper and signals "good hand".

Out of position this cr flop with nothing is expensive, we dont know what they are stealing with so we will never know where we are and we are.

[MrTeddyKGB]

[ QUOTE ]
Both plays have advantages and disadvantages so why do you think one play is better than the other? Or doesn't it matter and is it just a matter of style?



[/ QUOTE ]
I think you have to three bet for the value of the hand. You are still going to flop a pair or a draw half the time. It is better to make your play on a bigger pot. even if you miss the flop your three bet gives you the odds to draw out kinda how Ace King prefers to be all in pre-flop. The bigger pot also helps to reduce the value of his position. (If you flop a gutshot and overs, you can not be out played post flop if it goes 3 or 4 bets) It is much tougher playing your overs getting 5-1 on his flop bet. With a hand that is most likley boss pre-flop I dont mind being tied to a 8 or 10 sb pot.

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
We also 3bet preflop because we dont want them to steal on us every time, 3betting is best way to make them fold K4o on button instead of stealing.

[/ QUOTE ]

The button loses out marginally when stealng with a too-weak hand, the small blind loses out a bit more, and the BB takes the cake. I want the button to stealraise with K4o every time I'm in the BB.

[wuarhg]

I'm working on my 3-betting from the BB, at the moment my PFR is only 10% from the BB. Assume a 30/20 40% AtSB guy openraises on the button and you are in the BB, what hands do you usually 3-bet?

[balkii]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We also 3bet preflop because we dont want them to steal on us every time, 3betting is best way to make them fold K4o on button instead of stealing.

[/ QUOTE ]

The button loses out marginally when stealng with a too-weak hand, the small blind loses out a bit more, and the BB takes the cake. I want the button to stealraise with K4o every time I'm in the BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

could you explain the logic behind this? I most CERTAINLY would rather have an opponent fold K4o on the button than raise with it.

You become the button when the button folds. You arent forced to call a raise out of position against an aggressive player.

[Trix]

You really think your EV is higher with button stealing too weak hands rather than getting to play HU with position against the SB?

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]
could you explain the logic behind this? I most CERTAINLY would rather have an opponent fold K4o on the button than raise with it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm afraid I'm armed only with my intuition and PT database for this one, and won't be able to logic it.

First of all, openraising K4o with a TAG BB is a small error (since none of us do it, do we?), so the button must be losing money. Thus, either the SB or the BB must be making money - that is, they are better off in this situation than they would have been while headsup. And clearly if the SB isn't better off, then the BB is making money off both players.

I know that I like it when it's folded around to me in the SB, and not just because headsup is fun! I had a look at my 10/20 database figures, and my BB/hand for the SB when it's folded to me (I determined this manually by filtering for opportunity to steal & raised/called/folded) is +0.15 over 2200 hands. My BB/hand for the SB facing a stealraise is -0.18, and while this doesn't take into account that the button is stealing with K4o, it is a good deal closer to the dreaded -0.25.

So it seems that the SB would prefer to be headsup with the BB than facing the K4o stealraise, and is losing money because of it. Thus, if this raise causes the button and SB to be worse off, then the BB is better off because of it. Clearly this is dependant on how apt each player is, and if the SB is a huge moron then it would be different, but I can say that as the BB I'm generally happy for the button to steal with too weak hands.

[Guido]

Thanks for all the replies. Good discussion.

[ QUOTE ]
openraising K4o with a TAG BB is a small error (since none of us do it, do we?)

[/ QUOTE ]

For me it's almost an auto raise.

Thanks,

Guido

[ALL1N]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
openraising K4o with a TAG BB is a small error (since none of us do it, do we?)

[/ QUOTE ]

For me it's almost an auto raise.


[/ QUOTE ]

It's probably not a good thing. Kx is a pretty shocking hand vs a TAG, since they'll rarely let you get to showdown with it. I'm one of the loosest here (vpip 30 asb 44 etc) and K7o is about the lowest I'll go unless the blinds are exceptionally weak.

[Guido]

How can you steal about 44% of the time and not raise K4o?

When a TAG calls my PFR I'm obviously in trouble a lot of the time but the advantage of a TAG is also that he will fold very often preflop or on the flop which make up for the disadvantage when he calls.

Thanks,

Guido

[Trix]

He probably openraise more than you from the SB.