Rape, part 2

[Cyrus]

Hypothesis:

You are male. You have fallen asleep at a party. You wake up to find out that <font color="blue"> you are getting a blow job from a female person younger than you</font>, which you met at that party.

Background:

In a previous poll (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=2264233&amp;page=&amp;view=&amp;s b=5&amp;o=), the respondents voted by a margin of more than 4 to 1 that a real-life situation such as the one described above was rape.

[thatpfunk]

Depends 100% on my previous relationship with the chick.

Have I ever met her before? Looks matter as well.

[TimM]

http://forums.caraudio.com/vb/images/smilies/needpics.gif

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
Depends 100% on my previous relationship with the chick.
Looks matter as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll take that down as a No.

[Non_Comformist]

When you say younger, can I assume not a minor?

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
Depends 100% on my previous relationship with the chick.
Looks matter as well.



I'll take that down as a No.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. If I have been flirting with some chick all night and it happens, ok.

But if it is some random girl, obviously.

Things aren't black and white.

[The Truth]

I think technically it is "rape"
However, I have no idea how you would be able consider yourself as having been raped.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
When you say younger, can I assume not a minor?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is between two adults.

[Non_Comformist]

ok, then while certainly I would be justified is pressing charges I would not feel as those I was a victom rape.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
If I have been flirting with some chick all night and it happens, OK. But if it is some random girl, obviously [it is rape].

[/ QUOTE ]In other words, you are saying that if a woman flirts with a man all night at a party and later on she wakes up from a slumber to discover the man giving her head, that would not be rape. Right ?

You also gave the following qualifiers:

[ QUOTE ]
Depends 100% on my previous relationship with the chick.
Looks matter as well.

[/ QUOTE ] So, if a woman's boyfriend ("previous relationship") rapes her, then it's not rape ?

And if a gorgeous Brad Pitt-lookalike hunk ("looks matter") forces himself into a woman's panties, it not rape either ?

Respondents fall over themselves to present views that treat male-to-female rape on a a completely equal basis as female-to-male rape. The people who responded in the previous poll refused to acknowledge the difference between the sexes -- and their own natural urges, in the bargain.

[Vern]

A) It is not rape because Rape is sex w/o consent and as President Clinto taught us, that isn't sex.

B) In most penal codes it is defined as Sodomy, not Rape, since Rape requires penetration of the you know what into the other you know what.

[cnfuzzd]

most OOT members would awaken to discover that the younger woman giving them head at the party was nothing but a dream they had after falling asleep after a marathon session...

peace

john nickle

[TStoneMBD]

your analysis of his opinions are dumb. youre trying to chew him up when all hes trying to say is that he wouldnt feel victimized if he enjoyed the blow job. if she was a hot chick that he wants on his package then its fine. he would actually probably be really turned on by this as this is probably a fantasy many men have.

however, if its some chick that disgusts him, he may very well feel victimized.

either way, its rape by law. how the man feels about it is entirely dependant upon his relationship with the girl.

[purnell]

Yes, and I would use the threat of criminal charges to blackmail her for more blowjobs, preferably when I'm concious. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
All he's trying to say is that he wouldn't feel victimized if he enjoyed the blow job.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, it is a medical fact that some women get physically "turned on" during acts of rape. (The body reacts, although the mind resents.) Are you saying that if the rapist makes the woman "come", then it's not rape ?

Please understand that my questions are meant to probe and not to "chew" anyone, as you think. There is a clear dichotomy between the two sexes, which is inadequately, IMHO, addressed in the laws, and when people try to be policitally correct (or "act sensitive") they get ridiculous.

[ QUOTE ]
If she was a hot chick ... then it's fine.

[/ QUOTE ] I repeat: if a gorgeous Brad Pitt-lookalike hunk (the male equivalent of a "hot chick") forces himself into a woman's panties, it is not rape ?

Rape is about consent.

If a "hot hunk", about whom women fantasize, a man that a woman would otherwise desire, forces himself on her, then that is rape. What's the situation with the sexes reversed?

[ QUOTE ]
He would actually probably be really turned on by this as this is probably a fantasy many men have.

[/ QUOTE ] Precisely. Which is why I'm trying to elicit more honest responses from the predominantly male 2+2 audience.

[TStoneMBD]

Ok, I apologize.

However, its quite clear that sex becomes rape when consent is not given. If consent was not given, it is rape.

Whether the victim chooses to press charges is up to them.

I dont understand what is so complicated.

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If I have been flirting with some chick all night and it happens, OK. But if it is some random girl, obviously [it is rape].

[/ QUOTE ]In other words, you are saying that if a woman flirts with a man all night at a party and later on she wakes up from a slumber to discover the man giving her head, that would not be rape. Right ?


[/ QUOTE ]

No. He said that if he is the guy in question, he won't feel raped. Other people might feel differently. The poll in this thread is "In general, would YOU consider yourself..." and he's saying no, he wouldn't. Now, he might extend that belief to other people, but he hasn't stated as much (and my guess would be that he wouldn't.)
[ QUOTE ]


You also gave the following qualifiers:

[ QUOTE ]
Depends 100% on my previous relationship with the chick.
Looks matter as well.

[/ QUOTE ] So, if a woman's boyfriend ("previous relationship") rapes her, then it's not rape ?

And if a gorgeous Brad Pitt-lookalike hunk ("looks matter") forces himself into a woman's panties, it not rape either ?

Respondents fall over themselves to present views that treat male-to-female rape on a a completely equal basis as female-to-male rape. The people who responded in the previous poll refused to acknowledge the difference between the sexes -- and their own natural urges, in the bargain.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, he's discussing how he would feel if he were the guy in question. You have no reason to infer that he'd answer either of the above questions with "correct, that's not rape" yet word them in a way that implies you think he would.

Stop being ridiculous. You spend a lot of time in the politics forum, don't you? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
All he's trying to say is that he wouldn't feel victimized if he enjoyed the blow job.

[/ QUOTE ] Well, it is a medical fact that some women get physically "turned on" during acts of rape. (The body reacts, although the mind resents.) Are you saying that if the rapist makes the woman "come", then it's not rape ?


[/ QUOTE ]
I said it in my other reply to you, but it's worth repeating. Stop being ridiculous. Of course that's not what TStone's saying. TStone's attempting to clarify for you what pfunk said, since you seem not to get it. Furthermore, he's only discussing "feeling victimized", which as I understand things has fairly little to do with the legal definition of rape. People who don't feel victimized don't press charges, so the laws stay fairly broad. If someone assaults a woman, she can't fight him off, and he forces intercourse during which she has an orgasm, it's rape. No one here is saying otherwise.

(As a note. I may be misreading your posts. You're phrasing your questions in a manner which leads me to think you've read TStone's post as implying a "yes" answer, even if you don't think he'd actually give one.)
[ QUOTE ]

Please understand that my questions are meant to probe and not to "chew" anyone, as you think. There is a clear dichotomy between the two sexes, which is inadequately, IMHO, addressed in the laws, and when people try to be policitally correct (or "act sensitive") they get ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

They still read like push-polling. FWIW.
[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
If she was a hot chick ... then it's fine.

[/ QUOTE ] I repeat: if a gorgeous Brad Pitt-lookalike hunk (the male equivalent of a "hot chick") forces himself into a woman's panties, it is not rape ?

Rape is about consent.


[/ QUOTE ]
Absolutely. You're responding to people who've said that under certain circumstances they'd let the "consent" requirement slide.
[ QUOTE ]

If a "hot hunk", about whom women fantasize, a man that a woman would otherwise desire, forces himself on her, then that is rape. What's the situation with the sexes reversed?

[ QUOTE ]
He would actually probably be really turned on by this as this is probably a fantasy many men have.

[/ QUOTE ] Precisely. Which is why I'm trying to elicit more honest responses from the predominantly male 2+2 audience.

[/ QUOTE ]

He might be turned on, but from a legal perspective it's no less rape. That doesn't mean he's going to object. I'd think a more interesting question would be:

If the guy wakes up to the blowjob, is turned on by the idea, makes no objection (or encourages the girl in question) does that at some point legally un-become rape?

[jakethebake]

Depends on what kind of party this is. Some parties this would be a reasonable expectation if one fell asleep.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
It's quite clear that sex becomes rape when consent is not given. If consent was not given, it is rape. Whether the victim chooses to press charges is up to them.

[/ QUOTE ]

The poll question is about YOU, each and every respondent. How would YOU consider the situation, in general, if that happened to YOU, would you consider it rape or not? Cast yer vote.

[BeerMoney]

Adult Men can't be raped by adult women.

[tpir90036]

Well I did not consent... so clearly it is rape.

However, that does not mean that it would offend me or that I would press charges since I very well may have consented if I were awake when it started. I had a horny girlfriend in college who used to "rape" me like this and I never called the cops on her. I always wondered what her reaction would be if I woke her up with me boning her... but it never really came up since I always slept way longer than her.

[Cyrus]

[ QUOTE ]
If the guy wakes up to the blowjob, is turned on by the idea, makes no objection (or encourages the girl in question) does that at some point legally un-become rape?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes.

It becomes a case of rape when and only when the alleged victim decides to press charges.

That's the law -- at least in the United States and most countries in Western Europe. You might be thinking Upper Afghanistan perhaps.

[ QUOTE ]
I may be misreading your posts ... They still read like push-polling.

[/ QUOTE ] They are not. I'm simply clarifying things because the hypotheses of my two polls seem unclear to some. In the first poll, the question was general (Do you think that case in Norway qualifies as rape?), while in the curent poll the question is specifically about each and every respondent (How would you feel in that situation, in general?).

[ QUOTE ]
Stop being ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ] I'll try my best.

[bosoxfan]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, and I would use the threat of criminal charges to blackmail her for more blowjobs, preferably when I'm concious.

[/ QUOTE ]

We have a winner

[drewjustdrew]

The real question is at what point do you ask her to let you up so you can post about the raging party and the hummer you are currently getting on an internet forum?

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If the guy wakes up to the blowjob, is turned on by the idea, makes no objection (or encourages the girl in question) does that at some point legally un-become rape?

[/ QUOTE ] Yes.

It becomes a case of rape when and only when the alleged victim decides to press charges.

That's the law -- at least in the United States and most countries in Western Europe.


[/ QUOTE ]
My original post was, of course, working off the assumption that whatever happens while he's asleep _is_ rape. If he lets it continue he's no longer able to press charges for what's happened already? (This seems entirely reasonable to me, I've just learned not to expect the law to match my conceptions of "reasonable".)

I'd figure anything for which one could reasonably press rape charges could be considered rape even before it was brought to the police. (I hesitate to say "successfully press" since plenty of instances of rape where consent isn't particularly provable one way or the other.) Isn't this the case with other crimes? If I try to shoot someone, I figure it still counts as attempted murder even before the police/courts get involved.

Some respondents in this thread have said something along the lines of "It's rape, but I wouldn't necessarily press charges." Your assumptions and theirs about what constitutes rape thus appear to be somewhat different. A cliff's-notes version of the relevant law might help this discussion, but I doubt I'm not the one to provide it.
[ QUOTE ]

I'm simply clarifying things because the hypotheses of my two polls seem unclear to some. In the first poll, the question was general (Do you think that case in Norway qualifies as rape?), while in the curent poll the question is specifically about each and every respondent (How would you feel in that situation, in general?).


[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, gotcha. It seemed to me that several of your questions in this thread related more to the general case than to specific respondents, thus my confusion.