protecting my hand, similar to an example in poker essays

[aba20]

I think that I might have made a mistake on this hand on the flop. Any ideas how to better protect my hand. Or is my line ok. I normally wouldn't worry about a hand like this and say I got sucked out on but after reading poker essays I think that I might not have properly protected my hand on the flop.
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds, SB calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

River: (12.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP2 checks.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

[rmarotti]

The only guy you could even hope to face with two cold on the flop here is MP1. I don't really see a way to protect this hand. I think you played it fine. What would you do if bet into on the river?

[aba20]

probably a crying call. Just because of pot size, getting 13-1 and you can never to sure online. If I was going to fold it would have been on the turn. Do you think this is a leak?? If so how large.

[rmarotti]

The turn is a fairly easy call as it could just be two pair which you have plenty of outs against. I'd have a tough time folding the river for one bet, but I think it might be the right play anyway.

[aba20]

I could see some hands that I am ahead of that he might pop me with on the turn. possibly JT-KT it is the party 2-4 who knows. Easy call on the river IMO.

[GrekeHaus]

I actually fold this preflop. ATo is a hand with very little value in a raised multi-way pot like this one.

With the raise and all those cold callers, there is a great chance that either a better ace or a big pair out there. A pair of tens is unlikely to hold up in this pot and with the A, you always have the fear of being outkicked.

While you might technically have pot odds to call this here, the difficulty of playing this post flop from out of position likely makes this -EV here.

[Chris Dow]

Incorrect, you play too tight.

[GrekeHaus]

[ QUOTE ]
Incorrect, you play too tight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Explain.

[aba20]

I used to fold this but in the blind it is +EV, atleast according to Matt Hilger in his book internet texas holdem. Though in small stakes holdem they say that it is not playable. I think that it is probably very close either way.

[Chris Dow]

[ QUOTE ]
ATo is a hand with very little value in a raised multi-way pot like this one.

[/ QUOTE ]
This statement implys that you devalue your big unsuiteds too much to me. Yes weakened, but here you are getting 11-1 and for all intents and purposes close the action. I guarantee that ATo earns way better than 1/12 pots with 6 players to the flop just from a simple equity standpoint

[ QUOTE ]
With the raise and all those cold callers, there is a great chance that either a better ace or a big pair out there. A pair of tens is unlikely to hold up in this pot and with the A, you always have the fear of being outkicked.


[/ QUOTE ]
This paragraph is how to play scared. You do realize that say if you had KQs here you would call in a second but are just as likely to be dominated in the ways you are stating. Preflop you don't need the best hand, or even to be 100% sure that you aren't dominated. What you need is a favorable combination of equity and implied odds.

[ QUOTE ]
While you might technically have pot odds to call this here, the difficulty of playing this post flop from out of position likely makes this -EV here.

[/ QUOTE ]
This paragraph illustrates the danger of making loose assumptions. Be sure to think through all your reasons when making a decision. 1) Pot odds are important but here you have tremendous pot odds, as I mentioned it is 11-1. 2) Position is important but difficulty playing out of position does not swing the hand into a fold when the other factors are very favorable. I would say that your discomfort playing oop is probably leading you to play too tight. A much better, in terms of profit, solution is to master postflop play so that this isn't as much of an issue. Trust me, the way to kill these low limit games is postflop play, not strict preflop guidelines. 3) Your assumption that the factors you list swing this into a -ev move are incorrect, the preflop call is very +ev and failure to correctly evaluate spots like this is a leak, and since this one comes up so frequently it is a big leak.

[masonx]

The best way here to protect your hand is to bet out since the Pre-flop raiser is two to your left, he will be likely to raise you. If you go for the c/r he will obet 90% of the time and everyone will call you will raise and the pot will have 4-5 people putting in two bets when you probably arent that huge of a fav. to win at the point.

getting 10-1 or so you should see a flop with that hand, although your probably dominated and you got shitty position.

I could see someone who picked up a flush draw with a mid pair raising on the turn there, possibly JT or KT. If you had any reads on him it would be tons easier to say whats correct.

But i think you played it fine and would have had to call a river bet.

[GrekeHaus]

Thanks.

I know that one of my weaknesses is playing too tight and wasn't sure if this was one of those spots. I was hoping someone would either back me up or correct me.

--GH

[GrekeHaus]

nice avatar. where'd you get that?

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ATo is a hand with very little value in a raised multi-way pot like this one.

[/ QUOTE ]
This statement implys that you devalue your big unsuiteds too much to me. Yes weakened, but here you are getting 11-1 and for all intents and purposes close the action. I guarantee that ATo earns way better than 1/12 pots with 6 players to the flop just from a simple equity standpoint

[ QUOTE ]
With the raise and all those cold callers, there is a great chance that either a better ace or a big pair out there. A pair of tens is unlikely to hold up in this pot and with the A, you always have the fear of being outkicked.


[/ QUOTE ]
This paragraph is how to play scared. You do realize that say if you had KQs here you would call in a second but are just as likely to be dominated in the ways you are stating. Preflop you don't need the best hand, or even to be 100% sure that you aren't dominated. What you need is a favorable combination of equity and implied odds.

[ QUOTE ]
While you might technically have pot odds to call this here, the difficulty of playing this post flop from out of position likely makes this -EV here.

[/ QUOTE ]
This paragraph illustrates the danger of making loose assumptions. Be sure to think through all your reasons when making a decision. 1) Pot odds are important but here you have tremendous pot odds, as I mentioned it is 11-1. 2) Position is important but difficulty playing out of position does not swing the hand into a fold when the other factors are very favorable. I would say that your discomfort playing oop is probably leading you to play too tight. A much better, in terms of profit, solution is to master postflop play so that this isn't as much of an issue. Trust me, the way to kill these low limit games is postflop play, not strict preflop guidelines. 3) Your assumption that the factors you list swing this into a -ev move are incorrect, the preflop call is very +ev and failure to correctly evaluate spots like this is a leak, and since this one comes up so frequently it is a big leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great post Chris.

[masonx]

heh i dont remember.

[27offsooot]

I don't mind calling PF in this situation, but there is some flawed thinking in your post.

"Yes weakened, but here you are getting 11-1 and for all intents and purposes close the action. I guarantee that ATo earns way better than 1/12 pots with 6 players to the flop just from a simple equity standpoint"

You need to pick up more than 1/12th the pots. You can't equate PF equity with % of pots you win. The post flop bets you put in are going to be much more substantial than the one sb.

"This paragraph is how to play scared. You do realize that say if you had KQs here you would call in a second but are just as likely to be dominated in the ways you are stating. Preflop you don't need the best hand, or even to be 100% sure that you aren't dominated. What you need is a favorable combination of equity and implied odds."

KQs has more ways to win than A10, that's why it's a much easier call to make.

"A much better, in terms of profit, solution is to master postflop play so that this isn't as much of an issue. Trust me, the way to kill these low limit games is postflop play, not strict preflop guidelines."

No matter how good you are, position is critical. I think that your positional disadvantage is more mitigated by the crappy play of your opponents than by your own ability to "master post-flop play". This is why position is less important at 2/4 than say 15/30 given the same quality of player OOP.

[Chris Dow]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't mind calling PF in this situation, but there is some flawed thinking in your post.

"Yes weakened, but here you are getting 11-1 and for all intents and purposes close the action. I guarantee that ATo earns way better than 1/12 pots with 6 players to the flop just from a simple equity standpoint"

You need to pick up more than 1/12th the pots. You can't equate PF equity with % of pots you win. The post flop bets you put in are going to be much more substantial than the one sb.

"This paragraph is how to play scared. You do realize that say if you had KQs here you would call in a second but are just as likely to be dominated in the ways you are stating. Preflop you don't need the best hand, or even to be 100% sure that you aren't dominated. What you need is a favorable combination of equity and implied odds."

KQs has more ways to win than A10, that's why it's a much easier call to make.

"A much better, in terms of profit, solution is to master postflop play so that this isn't as much of an issue. Trust me, the way to kill these low limit games is postflop play, not strict preflop guidelines."

No matter how good you are, position is critical. I think that your positional disadvantage is more mitigated by the crappy play of your opponents than by your own ability to "master post-flop play". This is why position is less important at 2/4 than say 15/30 given the same quality of player OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are butchering for the sake of butchering, which is unnecessary. The poster does not have a very clear understanding of these concepts so I attempted to draw the clearest examples possible. To defend myself anyway:

I'll have to admit I have no idea why you are ripping the 1/12 pf equity example. I was pointing out how heavy the pot odds are. Do I really need to bring up the example of "pretend you can call ai"? PF equity is exactly related to the amount of pots you win. I'm thoroughly confused by how you're trying to rip up what I said.

For God's sake, lighten up on the KQs example! I am well aware that the KQs has more ways to win, my point, which I elaborate extensively, was merely that the idea of being dominated by some hand somewhere cannot be the motivating factor here.

Finally, I never argued that position was unimportant, I simply suggested how not to go overboard and fold too much using "position" as the excuse. This sequence:

[ QUOTE ]
I think that your positional disadvantage is more mitigated by the crappy play of your opponents than by your own ability to "master post-flop play". This is why position is less important at 2/4 than say 15/30 given the same quality of player OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is hard to follow, vague, and not very helpful. If you think you can't be far superior to your opponents at postflop play at this level, you're wrong. "Mitigation by the crappy play of your opponents" =&gt; You are better than them postflop. No? The final sentence comparing 2/4 to 15/30 is completely ridiculous because you say that while the quality of player remains the same, position becomes more important because the blinds are bigger. Excusez moi, mais ca c'est absolutement faux.

So I suppose I'd say be very careful with your own flawed thinking.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
ATo is a hand with very little value in a raised multi-way pot like this one.

[/ QUOTE ]
This statement implys that you devalue your big unsuiteds too much to me. Yes weakened, but here you are getting 11-1 and for all intents and purposes close the action. I guarantee that ATo earns way better than 1/12 pots with 6 players to the flop just from a simple equity standpoint

[/ QUOTE ]

Does it hurt when you pull arrogant pronouncements out of your ass like that?



[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
With the raise and all those cold callers, there is a great chance that either a better ace or a big pair out there. A pair of tens is unlikely to hold up in this pot and with the A, you always have the fear of being outkicked.


[/ QUOTE ]
This paragraph is how to play scared. You do realize that say if you had KQs here you would call in a second but are just as likely to be dominated in the ways you are stating.

[/ QUOTE ]

You do realize that KQs is a much better hand than ATo, don't you?



[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
While you might technically have pot odds to call this here, the difficulty of playing this post flop from out of position likely makes this -EV here.

[/ QUOTE ]

This paragraph illustrates the danger of making loose assumptions. Be sure to think through all your reasons when making a decision. 1) Pot odds are important but here you have tremendous pot odds, as I mentioned it is 11-1. 2) Position is important but difficulty playing out of position does not swing the hand into a fold when the other factors are very favorable. I would say that your discomfort playing oop is probably leading you to play too tight. A much better, in terms of profit, solution is to master postflop play so that this isn't as much of an issue. Trust me, the way to kill these low limit games is postflop play, not strict preflop guidelines. 3) Your assumption that the factors you list swing this into a -ev move are incorrect, the preflop call is very +ev and failure to correctly evaluate spots like this is a leak, and since this one comes up so frequently it is a big leak.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny thing is, Miller recommends fairly loose PF play in loose, low limit games, yet he pretty much hates ATo preflop in a multiway pot. Adding into that mix the fact the Hero is OOP and against an EP raiser, and I don't have a problem with the preflop fold.

P.S. Given how you played that AK hand vs. the all club flop, I don't think you are really in any position to be talking about others' possible post-flop leaks.

[Chris Dow]

Wow, I already replied to one of these posts and now another one... okie doke, you guys can shove it. I will keep my opinions to myself.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]


You are butchering for the sake of butchering, which is unnecessary. The poster does not have a very clear understanding of these concepts so I attempted to draw the clearest examples possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll have to admit I have no idea why you are ripping the 1/12 pf equity example. I was pointing out how heavy the pot odds are.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
For God's sake, lighten up on the KQs example! I am well aware that the KQs has more ways to win, my point, which I elaborate extensively, was merely that the idea of being dominated by some hand somewhere cannot be the motivating factor here.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, I never argued that position was unimportant, I simply suggested how not to go overboard and fold too much using "position" as the excuse.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you arrogantly use phrases (in this and other threads) like "I guarantee it," "very +EV," "You're very incorrect," "You have large post-flop leaks," etc., then it is not unreasonable of others to expect that the examples/numbers that you provide will actually be sound.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Wow, I already replied to one of these posts and now another one... okie doke, you guys can shove it. I will keep my opinions to myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you promise, or is this just another one of those assertions you pulled out of your ass?

[27offsooot]

Look, I didn't mean to come off as arrogant.

I just don't think that you can say, I will have &gt; 1/12 equity at the river, so I should call. Then, u can justify calling with any two cards. My point is that you will be spending a lot more post-flop to get to the river than the one sb you put in PF.

The KQs example was just meant to point out the obvious.

The positional point was just my own thoughts and I was more looking to see if others agreed. I shouldn't have contradicted you in such a definitive manner. ATo is still going to be a difficult hand to play OOP and with people in between you and the raiser on both sides.

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]

I think that your positional disadvantage is more mitigated by the crappy play of your opponents than by your own ability to "master post-flop play". This is why position is less important at 2/4 than say 15/30 given the same quality of player OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is hard to follow, vague, and not very helpful. If you think you can't be far superior to your opponents at postflop play at this level, you're wrong. "Mitigation by the crappy play of your opponents" =&gt; You are better than them postflop. No? The final sentence comparing 2/4 to 15/30 is completely ridiculous because you say that while the quality of player remains the same, position becomes more important because the blinds are bigger. Excusez moi, mais ca c'est absolutement faux.

So I suppose I'd say be very careful with your own flawed thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're right, i was kind of vague here. The point of my post is that position still matters and even if you're a very good post-flop player, being out of position sucks. The 15/30 comment had nothing to do about the stakes or your own relative ability to beat the game. I don't play that high, but my feeling is that people are more aware of position in that game and will punish u when you're out of position, much, much more. Again, this last part was my own ramblings and doesn't affect the point that being OOP and also having very little way to protect your hand sucks.