Top set how do I get away from it. [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

View Full Version : Top set how do I get away from it.

aba20

04-29-2005, 03:48 AM

I never raised once in this hand. At first I was so excited about all the action I was getting on top set but then I realized I might actually be behind. Where did I go wrong or is this one of those hands.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Button raises, Hero calls, MP2 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Button raises, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

River: (15.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Button raises, Hero calls, MP2 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 27.25 BB

rmarotti

04-29-2005, 03:49 AM

You don't.

Chris Dow

04-29-2005, 03:53 AM

Yeah this is just a dumb donk hand. Unfortunately there isn't room for you to play well. Finding the call button at every opportunity looks ok, with the exception of the river but imo you can't rely on MP to 3-bet except a very small % of the time here, so I don't mind calling 2 cold the first time. I dunno if I can call 2 cold twice on the river though. I dunno why the hell I'd fold top set either though. It appears your opponents are really wild, and that leaves enough doubt for a pretty easy final crying call.

PokerBob

04-29-2005, 07:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I never raised once in this hand. At first I was so excited about all the action I was getting on top set but then I realized I might actually be behind. Where did I go wrong or is this one of those hands.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
3 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Button raises, Hero calls, MP2 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Button raises, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

River: (15.25 BB) 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets, Button raises, Hero calls, MP2 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 27.25 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

3-bet the turn.

Chris Dow

04-29-2005, 07:26 AM

I don't think 3 betting the turn helps our hero do anything but lose more when behind. He is representing the flush himself in a VERY strong way if he 3 bets the turn. He's going to shut them down assuming his hand is good. It's not so bad to let them be insane here and hope for the best.

PokerBob

04-29-2005, 07:35 AM

Oh, yeah. 3-bet the flop too.

GetThere1Time

04-29-2005, 07:56 AM

I don't know if I have the stones to 3-bet this turn, but I can see how its the best line.

-You could have the best hand.
-If someone caps you have 10 outs.
-It makes the river clearer.

Michael Emery

04-29-2005, 09:29 AM

Simply one of those hands. You are absolutely chained to this hand.

Mike Emery

Octopus

04-29-2005, 09:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, yeah. 3-bet the flop too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about the turn, but I'd 3-bet this flop just about every time.

PokerBob

04-29-2005, 10:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
He is representing the flush himself in a VERY strong way if he 3 bets the turn. He's going to shut them down assuming his hand is good.

[/ QUOTE ] If he just calls the turn, the betting will likely stop anyway. If I'm hero, I don't want it to from what I've seen of the action thus far, plus I have 10 outs.

I think you are being paranoid. If MP had the flush, wouldn't he c/r the turn and trap the field for 2 bets. If button was on the flush draw, would he have capped the flop, casuing hero to call 2 cold? I think Hero's set is good here a vast majority of the time. 3-bet the turn and reevaluate.

flair1239

04-29-2005, 10:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
If button was on the flush draw, would he have capped the flop, casuing hero to call 2 cold?

[/ QUOTE ]

I know this move has been argued against lately. But if I was the button and had AKs or AQs, I would probably cap here as well.

My marginal reasons for doing so:

1. The flop bettor could be just on some sort of pair that I have overcards on, in which case I have 15 outs to beat his hand assuming that he does not improve.

2. Also it might be worth folding the BB. IF I am the button, a PP is in the range of hands that I would assign to the BB. If he folds I have a chance to win unimproved if the flop bettor was either betting a draw or over cards.

3. It somewhat disguises my hand. Also could give me more options on the turn.

4. If it is a mistake it really is not a huge one.

5. Capping draws really seems to irritate people. They remember it and seem to play with you more. As I am playing more and more with the same players, I think plays like this become more important. Become to some extent I do trend towards ABC poker, So I think it is important once in a while for a tightish player like myself, to do stuff like this occasionally. So in this situation, yeah maybe the play itself in this hand might not be optimal, but I think it can pay dividends in future hands.

6. Capping makes me feel like a man, and my girlfriend gets excited. Which makes this play +EV/

I don't do this every time. I probably would not if the flop bettor had some rockish qualities.

PokerBob

04-29-2005, 10:46 AM

You give excellent reasons for capping with the nut flush draw. I think we all agree that a variety of holdings could cap this flop. That said, I have top set and dammit I think it's good until you cap the turn, at which point I still have a slew of outs.

Flushed

04-29-2005, 10:54 AM

Not that this would change the hand, but why not 3-bet PF?

ravballz

04-29-2005, 11:03 AM

Ouch, that's pretty bad. Only thing I really don't like about this hand is calling the river cap.

Don't think you can fold anywhere though.

flair1239

04-29-2005, 11:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
You give excellent reasons for capping with the nut flush draw. I think we all agree that a variety of holdings could cap this flop. That said, I have top set and dammit I think it's good until you cap the turn, at which point I still have a slew of outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you. I also think that the river call is somewhat read dependent. My base read is fold, but I would easily adjust it depending on the game texture and the two players.

fooz

04-29-2005, 11:19 AM

I like 3betting the flop, and going into the flop with control. Then, betting and reraising the flop. Turn and River you just have to call and pray.

Isura

04-29-2005, 11:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Not that this would change the hand, but why not 3-bet PF?

[/ QUOTE ]

I 3-bet preflop if I know the raiser is loose, or a tight position aware raiser.

meep_42

04-29-2005, 12:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think Hero's set is good here a vast majority of the time. 3-bet the turn and reevaluate.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm putting button on a way overplayed AA/KK/QQ, no idea what to put MP2 on since he stop'n'gos on the turn->river.

-d

CanKid

04-29-2005, 12:45 PM

Raise preflop, I would have led the flop and jammed from then on