DavidC
04-28-2005, 03:36 PM
Hey guys,
I've noticed some people asking about switching from Limit to No-Limit. Let's add as much knowledge as we can to this thread on the subject, then we can just link them over to it when they ask.
Hopefully this will add to the efficiency of the forum, and finally, it's fun for me to try to explain a topic I'm not an expert on. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
--------------------------
Bankroll Requirements:
In LHE, the standard line is that you want 300 x the big bet to play effectively, without having to worry about swings killing you. Keep in mind that this assumes a few things:
1) You'll play til you're broke.
2) You won't drop down a limit if you get hurt.
3) You're a winning player (obviously, an infinite bankroll won't save a losing player).
4) Don't have a job that you are willing and able to use to support your poker roll.
In NLHE we measure bankrolls in the number of maximum buy-ins that it will support. We do this because we might be going all-in, putting an entire buy-in (or more) at risk as one unit of risk (one hand).
I'm new to the forum, and many players here recommend playing with 10 buy ins, but I would recommend at least 20 buy ins.
If you're playing without that kind of roll, there's some tricks that you can use at the standard 100xbb table (where the stacks are 100x the big blind):
1) Buy in for 50x the big blind. This effectively gives you twice the bankroll, as you'll be exposed to twice as many risk-units (hands) before you go bust, if you're getting unlucky. It'll CERTAINLY cut into earnings to do this, but until you're adequately rolled, it's a good idea.
2) If you're winning a certain amount, get off the table and get onto another table, so that you aren't risking a large-ish portion of your roll in one particular hand.
Keep in mind that you're only risking what the max stack on the table is, so if you're the one with the big stack, your risk is measured by what your opposition has. However, if you don't leave the table, and someone doubles up, and then you decide to stick around til the big blind, and then someone puts you to the test with a lot of money, you're on your own. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
If you don't have enough to be correctly rolled for Party's $25 game, there's lots of other sites (Stars?, UB?, Paradise, Pacific) that have smaller games.
-----
SD/100 Hands and Swings:
In Limit you use the term BB to mean big bets, when referring to statistical numbers, or to mean big blind when talking about position in hand analysis. In NLHE, we use the term BB to mean PTBB (poker tracker big bets), whichs means 2x the big blind.
I've found, over 16k hands, that my SD/100 is 60 PTBB. Quoting the FAQ from the microlimit forum, it seems that over there, "This varies by your style, but 14-18 (bb/100) seems to be the typical range."
Basically, since you're expecting to win or lose your entire stack (which may be greater than the max buy in), you're going to see much higher swings in periods of 100 hands than you would at limit.
To win or lose two or three max buy ins on a table in an hour is rare but quite possible.
-----
Winrates:
I've heard that 10 PTBB / 100 is a pretty damn good winrate, and that you may expect to do slightly better than that as you get to the NLHE $25 and worse as you get into the $200+ games. Assuming that you're very good and playing a large number of hands.
-----
Gameplay:
People here tend to espouse a much tighter playing style on the preflop than they do in SSLHE.
It's much easier to protect your hand, but you likely won't be protecting a vulnerable hand by checkraising.
There's much more of a focus on implied odds.
You need to learn odds going from the flop to the river all-in, which wasn't a big focus in LHE.
You need to think about effective odds also, if you're planning to call someone on the flop, and you need to think about how your betting decisions on the flop and turn influence the pot size, as well as how your post-flop action affects someone's preflop implied odds against you.
Betting the river in this game is a little different, particularly something called a "blocking bet". I'm not familiar with what it means exactly.
There's a huge payoff for tricking people in deep stacks no limit play, moreso than in LHE.
Your bluffs are going to involve bigger stacks of chips than they would at LHE, or else they will be transparent.
The bigger swings make the game more stressful, getting tricked makes the game more stressful, but making big plays is SO much fun that it's worth while. And you have much more control over what odds your opponents are getting in NLHE, when you put them on a hand and have something that beats it.
-----
Lastly, Miller and Sklansky are coming out with a book on the subject that should be quite helpful, and Harrington's already got one out now, which supposedly is good for ring play as well as tourney play.
I've noticed some people asking about switching from Limit to No-Limit. Let's add as much knowledge as we can to this thread on the subject, then we can just link them over to it when they ask.
Hopefully this will add to the efficiency of the forum, and finally, it's fun for me to try to explain a topic I'm not an expert on. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
--------------------------
Bankroll Requirements:
In LHE, the standard line is that you want 300 x the big bet to play effectively, without having to worry about swings killing you. Keep in mind that this assumes a few things:
1) You'll play til you're broke.
2) You won't drop down a limit if you get hurt.
3) You're a winning player (obviously, an infinite bankroll won't save a losing player).
4) Don't have a job that you are willing and able to use to support your poker roll.
In NLHE we measure bankrolls in the number of maximum buy-ins that it will support. We do this because we might be going all-in, putting an entire buy-in (or more) at risk as one unit of risk (one hand).
I'm new to the forum, and many players here recommend playing with 10 buy ins, but I would recommend at least 20 buy ins.
If you're playing without that kind of roll, there's some tricks that you can use at the standard 100xbb table (where the stacks are 100x the big blind):
1) Buy in for 50x the big blind. This effectively gives you twice the bankroll, as you'll be exposed to twice as many risk-units (hands) before you go bust, if you're getting unlucky. It'll CERTAINLY cut into earnings to do this, but until you're adequately rolled, it's a good idea.
2) If you're winning a certain amount, get off the table and get onto another table, so that you aren't risking a large-ish portion of your roll in one particular hand.
Keep in mind that you're only risking what the max stack on the table is, so if you're the one with the big stack, your risk is measured by what your opposition has. However, if you don't leave the table, and someone doubles up, and then you decide to stick around til the big blind, and then someone puts you to the test with a lot of money, you're on your own. /images/graemlins/smile.gif
If you don't have enough to be correctly rolled for Party's $25 game, there's lots of other sites (Stars?, UB?, Paradise, Pacific) that have smaller games.
-----
SD/100 Hands and Swings:
In Limit you use the term BB to mean big bets, when referring to statistical numbers, or to mean big blind when talking about position in hand analysis. In NLHE, we use the term BB to mean PTBB (poker tracker big bets), whichs means 2x the big blind.
I've found, over 16k hands, that my SD/100 is 60 PTBB. Quoting the FAQ from the microlimit forum, it seems that over there, "This varies by your style, but 14-18 (bb/100) seems to be the typical range."
Basically, since you're expecting to win or lose your entire stack (which may be greater than the max buy in), you're going to see much higher swings in periods of 100 hands than you would at limit.
To win or lose two or three max buy ins on a table in an hour is rare but quite possible.
-----
Winrates:
I've heard that 10 PTBB / 100 is a pretty damn good winrate, and that you may expect to do slightly better than that as you get to the NLHE $25 and worse as you get into the $200+ games. Assuming that you're very good and playing a large number of hands.
-----
Gameplay:
People here tend to espouse a much tighter playing style on the preflop than they do in SSLHE.
It's much easier to protect your hand, but you likely won't be protecting a vulnerable hand by checkraising.
There's much more of a focus on implied odds.
You need to learn odds going from the flop to the river all-in, which wasn't a big focus in LHE.
You need to think about effective odds also, if you're planning to call someone on the flop, and you need to think about how your betting decisions on the flop and turn influence the pot size, as well as how your post-flop action affects someone's preflop implied odds against you.
Betting the river in this game is a little different, particularly something called a "blocking bet". I'm not familiar with what it means exactly.
There's a huge payoff for tricking people in deep stacks no limit play, moreso than in LHE.
Your bluffs are going to involve bigger stacks of chips than they would at LHE, or else they will be transparent.
The bigger swings make the game more stressful, getting tricked makes the game more stressful, but making big plays is SO much fun that it's worth while. And you have much more control over what odds your opponents are getting in NLHE, when you put them on a hand and have something that beats it.
-----
Lastly, Miller and Sklansky are coming out with a book on the subject that should be quite helpful, and Harrington's already got one out now, which supposedly is good for ring play as well as tourney play.