Questionable limp, overbet flop, weak-tight fold

[NegativeEV]

$55 Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

CO (t1335)
Button (t1445)
SB (t3150)
BB (t1260)
UTG (t970)
Hero (t745)
MP2 (t1095)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls t30, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t90) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets t110</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t220</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t420

<font color="blue"> Not interested in pre-flop. What do we think of the flop action? </font>

[gumpzilla]

Make a smaller bet if you're going to fold to a minraise. I like 75. What's the point in the overbet?

[RedRum]

Looks like the BB Special is pushing you off 2 overcards. It's a little overbet, but not too much. Given your stack, and the limp, he probably put you on two overcards missing the flop and trying to bluff.
You know in the BB he can have any 2, and is more likely to have connected to the 533 flop than you with VPIP. He's probably using this against you.

Drink more,
RedRum

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
Make a smaller bet if you're going to fold to a minraise. I like 75. What's the point in the overbet?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wanted to take the pot down on the flop or make a push reasonable on the turn if I was called on the flop. 110 is better than 75 for both of these goals.

I also felt 110 gives me a better read for a lay-down if I was re-raised on the flop but I could be wrong on this.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
Looks like the BB Special is pushing you off 2 overcards. It's a little overbet, but not too much. Given your stack, and the limp, he probably put you on two overcards missing the flop and trying to bluff.
You know in the BB he can have any 2, and is more likely to have connected to the 533 flop than you with VPIP. He's probably using this against you.


[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed, this is the question. So do you push? Call? Fold?

[ QUOTE ]
Drink more,


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]

Indeed, this is the question. So do you push? Call? Fold?


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like calling here because there are so few cards on the turn to make me feel good about my hand. I would tend to push or fold.

His raise is asking to be called. Ideally, I have a read that tells me whether or not he's a good enough player to realize this. If he's not completely stupid, I'll fold. I have trouble coming up with a hand that decent player would play like this that we can beat.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I have trouble coming up with a hand that decent player would play like this that we can beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

66-77, 5x, 46, two clubs??

[ QUOTE ]
What do we think of the flop action?

[/ QUOTE ]

It's just you and the blinds here. I don't think you need to bet much here for them to tell you what they have. They either have a hand they want to play or they don't. For the number of times you're in this situation, the amount you bet will only need to be 60-75 chips. These two guys don't like their hand most of the time.

I agree with wuwei here. Push or fold. If you push, and you're called, you'll know what he has.

[DownLow]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Indeed, this is the question. So do you push? Call? Fold?


[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like calling here because there are so few cards on the turn to make me feel good about my hand. I would tend to push or fold.

His raise is asking to be called. Ideally, I have a read that tells me whether or not he's a good enough player to realize this. If he's not completely stupid, I'll fold. I have trouble coming up with a hand that decent player would play like this that we can beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I will often pull this move from the BB as a resteal (against thinking opponents). If I am in the BB's spot, your raise looks fishy. It looks like a raise that does not want to be called so my natural instinct is to raise it. Since the line the BB is taking is how the vast majority of players in the low levels play the flopped trips and the flop is unlikely to have connected with your hand it is a very effective resteal technique. I'm not saying that's what's going on here, but it certainly is a possibility. Depending on the opponent he could easily have a 5, a /images/graemlins/club.gif or str8 draw, or it could be a bald-faced bluff. I don't think I have the nuts to go over the top of him here, but if I was shorter or the blinds were higher I might go for the push.

[NegativeEV]

[ QUOTE ]
It's just you and the blinds here. I don't think you need to bet much here for them to tell you what they have. They either have a hand they want to play or they don't. For the number of times you're in this situation, the amount you bet will only need to be 60-75 chips. These two guys don't like their hand most of the time.


[/ QUOTE ]

Here is my response to an earlier post:

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Make a smaller bet if you're going to fold to a minraise. I like 75. What's the point in the overbet?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I wanted to take the pot down on the flop or make a push reasonable on the turn if I was called on the flop. 110 is better than 75 for both of these goals.

I also felt 110 gives me a better read for a lay-down if I was re-raised on the flop but I could be wrong on this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel like a 60-75 bet by me on this flop encourages blinds to make a move. I feel like when I bet the 110, the blinds will make a move less often and will actually have the goods when they pop me back. Like I said, I could be wrong.....

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like a 60-75 bet by me on this flop encourages blinds to make a move. I feel like when I bet the 110, the blinds will make a move less often and will actually have the goods when they pop me back. Like I said, I could be wrong.....


[/ QUOTE ]

Put yourself in BB's shoes. Which bet tells you more?

[wuwei]

[ QUOTE ]
66-77, 5x, 46, two clubs??

[/ QUOTE ]

The qualifier of "decent" is important. Do you think a decent player plays those hands that way? If I'm playing with those hands out of position, my raise would be much stronger. Actually, I would never c/r with those hands - I'd lead it out. If I'm including those hands in the range I think he plays this way, then I like a push.

However, I am open to the idea that I'm getting outplayed in a situation like this (see downlow's post). I agree with the idea that overbetting the pot asks to be played back at more than a standards 3/4 pot bet. If it were me, I would have fired 75ish on the flop.

[Scuba Chuck]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree with the idea that overbetting the pot asks to be played back at more

[/ QUOTE ]

Those damn $55ers.

[The Yugoslavian]

I think you should bet smaller at this and control the pot. You want to get to showdown cheaply....I don't see the wisdom in trying to make the pot big enough to just push on the turn /images/graemlins/confused.gif. If I had like QQ-AA I'd want to do that but not with 88 on this board.

I'd bet ~65 on this flop most likely. I feel it will be profitable and for value. I don't want to invest much more here with this hand on this flop. In fact, I don't mind checking behind and seeing how they play the turn.

Yugoslav

[Scuba Chuck]

<font color="blue"> I felt bad the whole time this was happening. But the meta-game is oh so fun. </font> /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

#Game No : 1968415349
***** Hand History for Game 1968415349 *****
NL Hold'em $50 Buy-in + $5 Entry Fee Trny:11730187 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Thursday, April 28, 20:32:28 EDT 2005
Table Table 12951 (Real Money)
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: uastudent ( $1195 )
Seat 5: spot6565 ( $925 )
Seat 6: SteelerChris ( $810 )
Seat 7: Bondboyd ( $75 )
Seat 8: SCUBA CHUCK( $940 )
Seat 2: WSUbobcat ( $1025 )
Seat 4: rock10 ( $2000 )
Seat 10: ILIKPUSS ( $985 )
Seat 9: NEGATIVE EV ( $970 )
Seat 3: husker8699 ( $1075 )
Trny:11730187 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to SCUBA CHUCK[ Js Ac ]
ILIKPUSS folds.
uastudent calls [30].
WSUbobcat folds.
husker8699 folds.
&gt;You have options at Table 12378 Table!.
rock10 folds.
spot6565 folds.
SteelerChris folds.
Bondboyd folds.
SCUBA CHUCKcalls [15].
NEGATIVE EV checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, As, 9s ]
&gt;You have options at Table 11775 Table!.
SCUBA CHUCKchecks.
NEGATIVE EV bets [75].
uastudent folds.
<font color="blue"> Does this move look familiar? </font>
SCUBA CHUCKraises [150].
NEGATIVE EV is all-In [865]
<font color="blue"> uh-oh, I either set him up, or I'm in trouble </font>
&gt;You have options at Table 11899 Table!.
&gt;You have options at Table 11899 Table!.
SCUBA CHUCK: someone's gonna be pissed
SCUBA CHUCKis all-In [760]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 9d ]
** Dealing River ** [ 2c ]
SCUBA CHUCKshows [ Js, Ac ] two pairs, aces and nines.
NEGATIVE EV shows [ Ad, 6d ] two pairs, aces and nines.
NEGATIVE EV wins 30 chips from side pot #1 with two pairs, aces and nines.
SCUBA CHUCKwins 1910 chips from the main pot with two pairs, aces and nines with jack kicker.
Game #1968421385 starts.

[The Yugoslavian]

I think Negative EV is playing in a -$EV manner right here...meta-game or no.

Yugoslav

[Irieguy]

[ QUOTE ]


I feel like a 60-75 bet by me on this flop encourages blinds to make a move. I feel like when I bet the 110, the blinds will make a move less often and will actually have the goods when they pop me back. Like I said, I could be wrong.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow, negativeEV... I've never seen you write something before that's this far off.

You have it exactly backwards.

Irieguy