Proper way to protect your hand

[marsvolta619]

Preflop I'm hating that everyone called. On the flop, I don't want to go for a checkraise for fear it will check through and that flush will beat me. Is it right to bet out on the flop?

Ultimate Bet 1/2 Hold'em (6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, CO calls, Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Flop: (10 SB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, CO calls, Button folds.

Turn: (7 BB) A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

River: (10 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls.

Final Pot: 16 BB

[mperich]

Betting the flop is fine. A flush draw is coming along anyways, and it diguises your hand. Bet the turn too.

-Mike

[zimmer879]

Bet the turn.

[balkii]

Preflop I'm hating that everyone called

this is big red flag of nut understanding how you make money in poker. the post title combined with the flop you showed also suggests this.

when you are dealt 2 aces, and the flop is not out yet, you have the NUTS. you want everyone to pay 4 bets everytime.

betting the flop is definitely the way to go. your reasong behind not wanting to checkraise is flawed. you should avoid attempting a checkraise because 1) you dont know where a bet will comefrom, and 2) you dont want the flop checked through because once again, YOU HAVE THE NUTS. betting the flop has absolutely nothing to do with protecting your hand. in fact, at no point in this hand should you be concerned with protecting your hand. you should just focus on extracting maximum bets.

wow a turn check. how is that extracting maximum bets? you realize you have the nuts right?

river, well played...

[marsvolta619]

I understand that the ideal situation is capping preflop with everyone in the pot, but the pecimist in me hates it /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Girchuck]

Preflop, rejoice. More people calling means more money for you. They all are calling with much worse hands, none of them have odds to call, they all are making a big error. You want people making errors.
You flopped a hand that wants to see a lot of action. When you bet the flop you are hoping for a raise, preferrably from a lower set. Anyway, how likely are you to get a check-raise after you raised the flop and an A falls on the flop and you are the guy with all the aces?
Since no one raised you on the flop, there is probably no lower set and that means that the A on the turn helps no one but you. So, you check to let people have their free cards hoping that maybe they'll draw a strong hand. Now, CO bets. What is this? What is CO doing? He doesn't have an ace and he probably doesn't have a set. Raising is pointless. You might as well just call and make it cheap for people to draw.
River isn't the best for you, but maybe it helped someone.
Your river line is obviously the best.

[Rockfish]

I think you played it perfectly.

You want everyone to call when you have aces. You still have the best hand.

Bet the flop.

Good turn.

Congratulations, you got raised on the river.

nh

[balkii]

i think the turn is very nice example of why you shouldnt just randomly checkraise. you had no idea where a bet was coming from. you check everyone checks to the CO, and now you cant even raise because you dont want to shut everyone out.

you should have just bet the turn, and hoped to get raised.

[marsvolta619]

I didn't want to raise the turn, I wanted to hopefully keep either UTG or the BB in for an extra BB and draw to their flush hopefully.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't want to raise the turn, I wanted to hopefully keep either UTG or the BB in for an extra BB and draw to their flush hopefully.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not betting the turn is atrocious in my opinion. You lose way more by letting them draw for free and fold the river than you gain when they hit.

Krishan

[Girchuck]

Nobody is raising this turn except as a bluff. Letting people draw to second best hands is ok. Charging them for their legitimate draws is the best, but you want even the unlikeliest gutshots to have a chance to arrive on the river. So it is a trade-off.

[Girchuck]

its a big field, if some idiot bluff-raises you and folds the field, you get 2BBs. If you let three people draw, they'll buy something, and you can extract the max. Besides, some idiot might just bluff bet and charge the field for you.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
its a big field, if some idiot bluff-raises you and folds the field, you get 2BBs. If you let three people draw, they'll buy something, and you can extract the max. Besides, some idiot might just bluff bet and charge the field for you.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is horrible analysis. You can't just say what might happen to justify your line. Maybe everybody a the table has a monster draw and the button has a set and you'll get 4 bets from everyone on the turn and christmas will come early and ...

It basically boils down to this.

1. People are more willing to call bets on the turn than the river.
2. If you check, there is no guarentee it will get bet.
3. If someone makes a good second best hand on the river, he probably would have paid on the turn to make it, and you can still get whatever action he'll give on the river.

Krishan

[mperich]

[ QUOTE ]
3. If someone makes a good second best hand on the river, he probably would have paid on the turn to make it, and you can still get whatever action he'll give on the river.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you dont understand this concept, and are trying to let people "catch up" for free all the time, you are losing a lot of bets and are most likely not a winning player.

-Mike

[mperich]

I don't understand how you can say the turn was played well. Read Krishans post further down for an explanation on why the turn was horribly played.

-Mike

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
3. If someone makes a good second best hand on the river, he probably would have paid on the turn to make it, and you can still get whatever action he'll give on the river.


[/ QUOTE ]

If you dont understand this concept, and are trying to let people "catch up" for free all the time, you are losing a lot of bets and are most likely not a winning player.

-Mike

[/ QUOTE ]

And let's not forgot I'm a slowplay whore. I slowplay way more than most people on the boards. So if I don't slowplay a spot, you really need to reconsider your analysis.

Krishan

[Girchuck]

In this hand, broadway gutshots with a T do not have odds to draw even if you are only betting a J. On the other hand, a broadway gutshot might have enough power to semi-bluff bet here if you let them. Low pocket pairs do not have the odds either, and you'd like them to spike because they'll go a long way. I think that after you made sure that nobody has a set with your flop bet, betting this turn will just fold too many people to be an obvious choice.

[sweet72]

If you raised before the flop, keep pushing afterwards. Especially since you have the best hand right now. How big a raise was it pre-flop? You should be concerned if everyone called. More likely your hand is not as strong as you thought. No need to fool around here, when a flush draw is possible at the turn. How big a bet did you make at the flop? Only lost 1 person. Turn comes another A. I like the check, makes you look weak and allows people now to catch up. River comes. You bet (how big). Others fold, except one who raises. You go over the top. How many chips were left for your opponent when he lost? Could you have gotten them all?

I think the main point, besides getting the biggest pot possible, is making sure you don't give others a chance to beat you. Make them pay to draw to their flush.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
In this hand, broadway gutshots with a T do not have odds to draw even if you are only betting a J. On the other hand, a broadway gutshot might have enough power to semi-bluff bet here if you let them. Low pocket pairs do not have the odds either, and you'd like them to spike because they'll go a long way. I think that after you made sure that nobody has a set with your flop bet, betting this turn will just fold too many people to be an obvious choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

The world is not made up of gutshots and pairs. What about a flush draw. What about a made straight. I'm okay if you are unconvinced. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Krishan

[mperich]

[ QUOTE ]
In this hand, broadway gutshots with a T do not have odds to draw even if you are only betting a J

[/ QUOTE ]

Depending on where they call from they will be getting anywhere from 8-1 -&gt; 10-1 on their call + implied odds (-reverse implieds of course, but they probably arent thinking about this too much at 1/2) I think a gutshot will call on the turn much more often than they will bet. About 10x as much imo.

[ QUOTE ]
Low pocket pairs do not have the odds either, and you'd like them to spike because they'll go a long way.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are assuming a lot. Like the fact that someone even HAS a low pair, and that they will hit their 4% shot. I estimate both of these things to happen maybe 1/50 times and you are losing a lot more money than you gain the few times this miracle happens. Not to mention at 1/2 maybe they will call with their pairs anyways, its not unheard of.

[ QUOTE ]
I think that after you made sure that nobody has a set with your flop bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Here you are advocating a slowplay that is totally incorrect, yet you think that noone else would make a slowplay that is more correct than the one you are suggesting? (Altho still incorrect in itself) Hmm...

Your reasoning on this turn is completely fold, and not betting it is a very large error.

-Mike

[Girchuck]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that after you made sure that nobody has a set with your flop bet

[/ QUOTE ]

Here you are advocating a slowplay that is totally incorrect, yet you think that noone else would make a slowplay that is more correct than the one you are suggesting? (Altho still incorrect in itself) Hmm...



[/ QUOTE ]

You are first to act on the turn, so if the set was slow-playing to the turn, you will know about it.

[Girchuck]

I concede that at $1-$2, betting the turn is profitable because there are so many loose callers. If no one pays attention to pot odds, you just have to play this ABC and hope for the best.

[krishanleong]

[ QUOTE ]
I concede that at $1-$2, betting the turn is profitable because there are so many loose callers. If no one pays attention to pot odds, you just have to play this ABC and hope for the best.

[/ QUOTE ]

At 5/10 I'm 98% positive checking this turn shows some serious misunderstanding of the game.

Krishan

[cjx]

[ QUOTE ]
How big a raise was it pre-flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm 99.9% certain this is a limit hold'em question.

[ QUOTE ]
You should be concerned if everyone called. More likely your hand is not as strong as you thought.

[/ QUOTE ]

How much stronger does it get? Preflop, nuts. Flop, nuts. Turn, nuts. River, nuts. He is MUCH less vulnerable to flushes than an ordinary TPTK hand as he is just as likely to improve to a full house or better as the flush is to come in.


[ QUOTE ]
No need to fool around here, when a flush draw is possible at the turn. How big a bet did you make at the flop? Only lost 1 person. Turn comes another A. I like the check, makes you look weak and allows people now to catch up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course you bet. You also bet the turn because if you don't it more often allows people to check behind. Unless you think you have a very solid chance of check-raising the field which requires a stellar read, you bet. Most players tend to be Loose Passive at 1-2 and will chase liberally and this pot is quite large so most players have decent odds to chase ANYWAY. Additionally, if you bet some people may fold, but if you check and (best case scenario) someone else bets... those same people will still likely fold and you may or may not be presented with a good raising oppurtunity. So, your options are get bets in with the nuts or possibly not get bets in with the nuts as I see.

cjx

[KaiShin]

What the crap is this?

People want to call you. Bet the turn.