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View Full Version : continuing with this week's "pairs early" theme


dfscott
04-28-2005, 01:51 PM
Two hands that I wasn't sure how to play, so I folded both, and now I'm questioning my decision. If it matters, these are both 33s.

Jacks...
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t640)
UTG+1 (t770)
MP1 (t700)
Hero (t760)
MP3 (t650)
CO (t940)
Button (t1020)
SB (t1775)
BB (t745)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t100</font>, Hero folds...

...and Feldons

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

MP1 (t1275)
MP2 (t565)
MP3 (t665)
CO (t1110)
Button (t750)
Hero (t805)
BB (t1620)
UTG (t745)
UTG+1 (t465)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP2 calls t30, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to t75</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero folds...

hummusx
04-28-2005, 01:56 PM
I really don't like folding the 9s. I guess you could be looking at a reraise behind you, but this is basically a min-raise to you in the SB. Maybe I'm too loose...

zambonidrivr
04-28-2005, 02:00 PM
reraise jacks dog.
call raise with 9's

The Yugoslavian
04-28-2005, 02:00 PM
FWIW I think both folds are fine.

Playing the jacks vs. certain opponents there is profitable, however, but I generally fold.

I wouldn't play those nines there...

Yugoslav

Sam T.
04-28-2005, 02:07 PM
Jacks:

Hmmm. I have to think folding here is the wrong play. Raising is a mathematical problem (to what? the perils of a Party short-stack). Calling and dealing with overcards on the flop is also a questionable idea, and that leaves...Poooosh.

A bit much? Perhaps. But if you push the villain's AQs isn't going to look so good any more.

99:

Another tough one. I actually think I would call here, and push the right kind of flop - something monotone, paired or completely ragged. (I guess I'm in a pushing mood today.)

Even if I call, and end up having to fold (BB re-raises, original raiser pushes), I've still got over 20BB. No problem.

Sam

SuitedSixes
04-28-2005, 02:19 PM
I'll fold both of those, also. Not worth it at this stage of a tournament.

Apathy
04-28-2005, 02:23 PM
[ QUOTE ]
reraise jacks dog.
call raise with 9's

[/ QUOTE ]

NO no no, You can call and play a flop against many types of opponents, I would usually fold though. The 99s If it looked like there would be 4+ to the flop you would have good odds for a set, in this hand fold.

BradleyT
04-28-2005, 02:25 PM
I'd play the 9's you have set value.

Oops you don't have position...but you've got money in already, easy call.

Apathy
04-28-2005, 02:33 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I'd play the 9's you have set value.

Oops you don't have position...but you've got money in already, easy call.

[/ QUOTE ]

A quick set value lesson. You have to call 60 into a 218 chip pot (assuming MP calls and BB calls half the time)

this is only 3.6 to 1 immediate odds. You also run the risk of either the BB or MP re-raising and forcing you to fold, plus it is unlikely anyone has a monster so you don't stand to get paid off huge necessarily if you hit, and will onccasionally loose your stack when you do (str8s, flushes, higher sets). You will also be out of position in the hand which GREATLY decreases your implied odds.

3.6 to 1 is not nearly good enough imo early in a party SNG.

SuitedSixes
04-28-2005, 02:36 PM
Amen.

BradleyT
04-28-2005, 02:45 PM
Easy 10:1 implied odds which make up for the times you lose.

And early in a SnG is exactly the time you want to play a hand for set value.

Edit - not to mention you don't need anywhere near a set to win the pot here.

BradleyT
04-28-2005, 02:52 PM
I don't get why everyone on here is deathly afraid of ever playing postflop.

Ryendal
04-28-2005, 02:54 PM
I simply can't understand why you want to call with 9s ...
what if a T on the flop or J, Q, K, A. You have only 15 in the pot, need still 60. Does it really worth ?

For Js, it seems really harder to find the best play. Fold is a way... A call too, hoping some flop without high cards, and only one opponent.
I would really like to have the point of view of good players on this hand. To fold ---&gt; the best way ?

pooh74
04-28-2005, 03:02 PM
hmmm..

I saw an UTG raise 4bbs in a 30 at stars yesterday...folded to BB who called.

A23 board...they ended up going to the river and getting all the chips in...betting/calling every street.

UTG raiser had A6s...hit his flush runner runner...BB had A2o hit 2 pair on flop and apparently thought it was still good even though there were two 3s on board.

this is level 2...in a 30+3...

whats my point? I dunno...forgot.

gumpzilla
04-28-2005, 03:15 PM
[ QUOTE ]
I don't get why everyone on here is deathly afraid of ever playing postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The prevailing wisdom is that most posters here feel that their advantage lies almost entirely in surviving to the push/fold rounds and that Party stacks are generally too short to play anything but the most clear-cut hands early.

The Yugoslavian
04-28-2005, 05:24 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Easy 10:1 implied odds which make up for the times you lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, they really don't /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[ QUOTE ]

And early in a SnG is exactly the time you want to play a hand for set value.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but a good STT player wants *more* value than you're getting here.

[ QUOTE ]

Edit - not to mention you don't need anywhere near a set to win the pot here.

[/ QUOTE ]

And also not to mention that a ton of the time you won't get your set paid.

It's not that we're necessarily afraid to play post-flop - it's that we like to play post-flop in a profitable situation....this isn't one of them.

Yugoslav

adanthar
04-28-2005, 06:28 PM
1 is kinda questionable. I like calling for overpair value in a 50 where I have more chips, but I can see a fold in a 30.

2...I would never fold in a 50. Maybe in a 30, it's been forever since I've played any of those. But getting these odds with this action, I sometimes call 22, never mind 99.

Actually, now that I think about it, I'll just use the magic words: "PT VP$IP/PFR dependent".

BradleyT
04-29-2005, 07:56 AM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't get why everyone on here is deathly afraid of ever playing postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

The prevailing wisdom is that most posters here feel that their advantage lies almost entirely in surviving to the push/fold rounds and that Party stacks are generally too short to play anything but the most clear-cut hands early.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny how GigaBet's post gets praised and bumped yet not followed.

nuclear500
04-29-2005, 09:39 AM
To always be afraid when big cards flop to your underpair is bad poker.

What if that big card frightens the other player more then it does you? The first person to stab at the pot is going to win it and you might be folding the best hand.

Ryendal
04-29-2005, 11:34 AM
Well, may be you're right. It the cas you have some good reads on opponents... else it's only gambling.
, no ?