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View Full Version : How the 2004 election was or was not stolen


Greg J
04-28-2005, 12:37 PM
I made this post originally for a message board some friends of mine run, but like 5 people read that board. I thought I might as well post it here too. This is geared towards a more leftist audience, so those of you with a conservative bend, please forgive some of the unflattering ways I refer to Bush voters. This is meant to be an objective analysis, and I think it is.

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I am one of those leftists that have a big problem with conspiracy theories. They are generally poorly thought out and pretty much always have an agenda. A lot of kooks and crazies on the left like to posit outrageous things like “we know where Osama Bin-Laden is, we just want to keep him uncaptured for propaganda purposes” or “the Bush Administration knew the 9/11 attacks were coming” and stupid stuff like that. I dismiss this kind of stuff for what it is: garbage.

So, you can imagine my standard response when someone tells me “the Republicans stole this election! Kerry actually won. There was MASSIVE voter fraud.” I generally give my standard stop-being-a-whiny-little-liberal-bitch response in my infamously untactful form (those of you that know me well know what I’m talking about here): “Yes but you forgetting about something very important.” “Oh yeah, what’s that Greg?” “The little green men on the grassy knoll – what role did they play in all this?” That leaves them feeling confused, then stupid, and my job is done – they feel dumb for having brought it up (as I thought they should), but more importantly, my message has gotten through: don’t believe this kind of crap.

However, a recent write up in the Washington Post has given me pause. This is done by a guy I respect: Terry Neal. He is a political reporter and columnist, and is, in my mind, pretty good at what he does. He is a political moderate and a registered independent. He pisses off people on both the left and the right, so, in my mind, he HAS to be doing something right. He recently brought up a report done by an academic trained as a public opinion analyst, which argues, based on exit polling data, that there WAS mass voter fraud in the 2004 Presidential election. This triggered my “this might need to be looked into” radar, so I have decided to do that. I am going to read the report, and post what I think of its findings here. I think I am qualified to do so – I have spend the last several years of my life becoming an expert in public opinion theory and analysis. It’s what I specialize in. As some of you know, I’m currently ABD. I’m not trying to toot my own horn here as to make the point that I know what I’m talking about when it comes to this kind of stuff. I say all this having not yet read the report – that comes next.

AFTER HAVING READ THE REPORT – my analysis:

First, who is conducting this study? Terry Neal notes the organization that published the report as “left leaning.” That, in my mind, is irrelevant when considering the actual researchers. There are twelve authors of this study, consisting of political scientists and statisticians. I have no doubt that this is not some disingenuous, partisan, or politically motivated report (crackpots on the right will believe otherwise). The people conducting this study are, in my opinion, trying to be fair and totally objective. Furthermore, the mathematical analyses are, as far as I can tell, impeccable. The theory, on the other hand, is not.

The authors discuss 3 explanations for the discrepancy between the exit poll and the election results:

1) Random error. This is the idea the there will always be some sampling error and that no poll will ever be 100% accurate. This is why when people on the news report polls you always here about a “margin of error.” This explanation is ruled out as virtually statistically impossible in the present case. The discrepancy between the exit poll and the election results is HUGE – much to big to be explained by random error.

2) Conventional wisdom. This can be summed up pretty simply as the idea that Bush voters were underrepresented in the exit polls. The writers of this report fault the authors of the initial report of the exit poll results for not being able to adequately answer why this is so. They criticize the main explanation of the difference between the exit poll and the election results: Bush voters systematically refused to answer exit pollsters questions.

3) Massive voter fraud. This report supports the notion that massive voter fraud took place in the most pro-Bush districts. However, they don’t really offer a whole lot of evidence to back up this assertion. Mainly they just criticize what the previous analysis of exit poll data for its flaws (and yes it does have some).

I won’t get into a detailed theoretical analysis, b/c no one wants to read that anyhow. I will say that this report basically blasts the initial report that came out by the group that conducted the exit polls for being wrong. They don’t offer that much to support their own argument. The most valid point I think they make is that response rates for the exit polls in more pro-Bush districts is higher, so how can it be that pro-Bush voters are refusing to answer the exit polls? Good question, and I think that both the initial report and the report being discussed here missed this point.

The point is that, from election to election, different people can vote. In this election, a lot of homophobic bigots, religious wackos, and pro-war psychopaths came out in droves to support ole W. Furthermore, Bush has largely brought the right wing militia, black helicopter crowd to the polls. These are people that are likely not to vote in most elections, but they turn out for a president they like. This is a group that is not, however, prone to want to talk to a lot of people. Getting past the pejorative language (sorry, could not resist), the Republicans did a great job mobilizing traditionally unmotivated voters by fostering issues those people cared about. This lead to the Bush vote being systematically underrepresented in the exit polls, especially in the most pro-Bush areas (since there are more of them to be underrepresented). If we are to conclude that the American electorate is stable from election to election, then there might be something to worry about here. But a lot of freaky, scary, and generally nasty people showed up to vote to show their support for bashing gays and killing Arabs. These also happen to be people that don’t like talk to exit pollsters.

It boils down to this: the problem with this report is that it does not take sociological points of view into consideration. It is done from a number crunching point of view. Like I said, the math in this report is legit. The logic and theory is not very good though. There are more plausible reasons than fraud to observe this kind of difference between the election and the results. I played a little at offering one here.

One legitimate issue this report brought up: this data needs to be made publicly available on the precinct level.

So there is my take. There was no massive voter fraud in my opinion. As much as I, and many of you, would like to think otherwise, Kerry did not really win the 2004 election. I wish I could say otherwise, but I can’t.

Links: http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/Exit_Polls_2004_Mitofsky-Edison.pdf
This is a link to the study I just talked about.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/24/AR2005042401545.html
This is a link to Terry Neal’s column.

Broken Glass Can
04-28-2005, 12:45 PM
You could spend a year reading this forum (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=203) which is dedicated to the "theft of the 2004 election."

Greg J
04-28-2005, 12:48 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You could spend a year reading this forum (http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&forum=203) which is dedicated to the "theft of the 2004 election."

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah I guess I could, but I'm not one of those tin foil hat wearing liberals.

Broken Glass Can
04-28-2005, 12:49 PM
[ QUOTE ]
In this election, a lot of homophobic bigots, religious wackos, and pro-war psychopaths came out in droves to support ole W.

[/ QUOTE ]

There aren't droves of those types of people in existence, so they could hardly turn out in large numbers.

Of course, there are plenty of good sensible citizens who are smeered by liberals and called "homophobic bigots, religious wackos, and pro-war psychopaths." I hope you are not spreading that liberal intolerance and name calling.

Greg J
04-28-2005, 12:52 PM
This was in my intro:

[ QUOTE ]
This is geared towards a more leftist audience, so those of you with a conservative bend, please forgive some of the unflattering ways I refer to Bush voters.

[/ QUOTE ]

partygirluk
04-28-2005, 12:53 PM
In a country with America, with such freedom of press, a conspiracy on this scale would almost certainly get leaked to the press. I don't buy it.

Florida in 2000 was a small enough win for Bush that some foul play might conceivably have been at work. But 2004 was quite clear, and the conspiracy theorists should accept the loss and move on.

BCPVP
04-28-2005, 12:55 PM
I think there was vote fraud, but not massively biased one way or another. My own state of Wisconsin is trying to deal with it. Because of our incredibly lax elections rules (No form of id required, same day registration, etc) we had lots of fraud. Now that the Republicans have introduced legislation in our state gov't that would require an id (and give out ids to any who don't have/can't afford them), the governor is/will veto it claiming it disenfranchises the old and the poor.

So there is probably vote fraud on both sides. Look at Washington's governor election for clear evidence of vote fraud...

Good post though!

Greg J
04-28-2005, 12:55 PM
[ QUOTE ]
But 2004 was quite clear, and you should accept the loss and move on.


[/ QUOTE ]
Did you even read what I wrote?

Greg J
04-28-2005, 12:57 PM
There will probabaly always be a small ammount of voter fraud in every election. My point is that the election was not stolen by massive ammounts of voter fraud.

Thanks for the kind words.

partygirluk
04-28-2005, 01:00 PM
Yes. Edited to make it more clear.

Apologies

Broken Glass Can
04-28-2005, 01:05 PM
I agree. Close elections mean only one thing: they were close. Neither 2000 or 2004 were stolen or full of rampant foul play.

I was hoping more of you liberals would be claiming that they were stolen, after all, we don't need you focusing instead on how to improve your electoral performance in 2008. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Broken Glass Can
04-28-2005, 01:07 PM
[ QUOTE ]
This was in my intro:

[ QUOTE ]
This is geared towards a more leftist audience, so those of you with a conservative bend, please forgive some of the unflattering ways I refer to Bush voters.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw that, but if its in the post, it can be commented on. You should simply focus only on the responses that you are interested in (the liberals).

Greg J
04-28-2005, 01:09 PM
[ QUOTE ]
You should simply focus only on the responses that you are interested in (the liberals).

[/ QUOTE ]
You mean you don't want me talking to you? /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Broken Glass Can
04-28-2005, 01:11 PM
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You should simply focus only on the responses that you are interested in (the liberals).

[/ QUOTE ]
You mean you don't want me talking to you? /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure, we can talk. I'm just saying don't expect us to blindly follow your instructions. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Greg J
04-28-2005, 01:18 PM
Actualy i perfer constructive dialog -- I don' think I've given anyone instructions. I don't post here, so I'm not familiar with the ground rules (if there are any), but I have no qualms talking to people I disagree with in a civilized way. I'm not into that Crossfire BS.

Broken Glass Can
04-28-2005, 01:21 PM
There aren't any ground rules, so you should just follow those sub-threads that interest you, since several may develop. You are doing just fine so far. Keep coming back.

adios
04-28-2005, 01:34 PM
A few questions I ask myself before looking at the results from the Edison/Mitofsky Report which is here:

Edison/Mitofsky Report (http://www.exit-poll.net/election-night/EvaluationJan192005.pdf)

1. What did the exit polls show about Ohio compared to the actual results? This is IMO the most relevant and important question because if Kerry wins Ohio, he wins the election. You could say the same about Florida perhaps but in reality Ohio turned out to be the key state in the election.

2. What states had the biggest discrepencies between the exit polls and the results?

3. Which states did Kerry do far worse than the exit polls predicted?


On question 1. Unless I'm reading the data incorrectly, Bush won by less of a margin in Ohio than the exit poll predicted Bush would win by. Nuff said about Ohio.

For Florida Bush won by a wider margin than the exit poll predicted but the exit poll predicted a comfortable victory for Bush in Florida. Nuff said about question 1.

On question 2. It looks like the actual error was the biggest in Kansas, Texas and Tennessee. The exit polls predicted that Bush would win each state by double digit margins which he did but Bush won by less than the exit polls predicted in each state.

On question 3. the only state I can find where the exit poll predicted Kerry would win and he lost was New Mexico and I confidently predicted that Bush would win New Mexico before the election. Anyway I don't see any state where the exit poll and the actual results are way out of line let alone predict that Kerry would win and he lost.

lehighguy
04-28-2005, 02:58 PM
Two is the simplest and most likely (like 99.9%) reason.

Exit polls are taken early in the day. If you look at those exit polls they have a higher concentration of woman and unemployed. They tend to be democrat. People who work long hours during the day tend to be Republicans, and they don't vote till they get off work, so later in the day. There are also geographical reasons for the bias, not to mention turnout can be different then predicted. It's a common well documented polling bias.

I actually made money of those exit polls. The first reports comming out of Michigan showed Bush ahead. His futures shot up to 40cents on the dollar. I sold them by the truckload because I saw that only districts they had done the poll in were rural areas.

trippin bily
04-28-2005, 03:16 PM
" Kerry did not really win the 2004 election. "
On behalf of the entire free world let me say...phew,,,

trippin bily
04-28-2005, 03:21 PM
How could it be possible to NOT show an id when voting. How would you know who it is voting?
How does showing an ID " disenfranchise " any one?
The left cannot possibly believe that showing an ID is bad?
The only people i could see being aginst showing an ID are those people looking to be shady.

BCPVP
04-28-2005, 04:45 PM
[ QUOTE ]
How could it be possible to NOT show an id when voting. How would you know who it is voting?

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't, really.

[ QUOTE ]
How does showing an ID " disenfranchise " any one?

[/ QUOTE ]
It disenfanchises those who would seek to commit vote fraud. And the DEMOCTRAT Governor is the one vetoing it. Draw your own conclusions.

[ QUOTE ]
The left cannot possibly believe that showing an ID is bad?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, the lefty in Madison does...

[ QUOTE ]
The only people i could see being aginst showing an ID are those people looking to be shady.

[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly.

There is little stopping anyone from voting as often as they can in Wisconsin. These bills requiring photo-id have passed through the assembly and senate and are still being vetoed. While the gov claims there are old and poor people w/o driver's licenses, the bill provides free id's to such people. And still it gets the veto.... /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Greg J
04-28-2005, 09:22 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Exit polls are taken early in the day. If you look at those exit polls they have a higher concentration of woman and unemployed. They tend to be democrat. People who work long hours during the day tend to be Republicans, and they don't vote till they get off work, so later in the day. There are also geographical reasons for the bias, not to mention turnout can be different then predicted. It's a common well documented polling bias.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, this is controlled for in the exit polls through a process of weighting. What you are sayin is correct bu it does not bias the results of the exit poll.

Broken Glass Can
04-28-2005, 09:42 PM
[ QUOTE ]

Actually, this is controlled for in the exit polls through a process of weighting. What you are sayin is correct bu it does not bias the results of the exit poll.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is a reason we have elections and don't just trust the polls. Pollsters make big mistakes. Weighting is often based on bad assumptions. They can't effectively poll the absentee voters, or the people who don't like to be interviewed by exit pollsters. Way too much focus is put on exit polls. They can catch big unexpected trends, but are worthless if you need a good level of accuracy.