You All Hate My Folds So How About a Non-Fold? [Archive]

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sthief09

04-28-2005, 04:24 AM

BB is almost all in. normally he's about average. pretty loose, kind of aggressive

UTG is weird. he's not that loose preflop and he's not that aggressive (I believe he was a 30/12), but he does some weird stuff postflop. he made a few odd overaggressive raises that seemed uncharactaristic for this type of player. his aggression factor was kind of low, but he was capable of getting out of line. my guess is that he has a pretty shallow understanding of the game and misapplies some concepts.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, UTG calls, MP folds, Hero calls.

I don't like the flop bet, so please don't focus on it

Turn: (7 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (10 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG raises, Hero calls, BB raises $1.50 (All-In), UTG calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.45 BB

stigmata

04-28-2005, 04:38 AM

Why the preflop raise? Out of position, marginal hand...... I can perhaps see an argument for doing this in the BB/LP versus a large field, but otherwise, no. This also led to the flop mistake.

I would normally fold the river, but given the reads and the fact that BB is almost all in (therefore UTG could be trying some misguided isolation raise) I guess it's close, but I think I still fold this. I think the best you can hope for is a shared pot, and at those odds it does not look good.

TStoneMBD

04-28-2005, 04:43 AM

i dont know what you were doing preflop. i also dont know why you think betting the flop is bad. i would often bet this flop even if i didnt raise preflop in the first place.

i think you have to fold the river. i really cant see UTG making this play with anything that doesnt beat you. its not like hes raising the BB with Ahigh trying to stop you from overcalling your bigger ace while catching the BB with an OESD. the BB could easily be ahead of you at this point anyway. i think its far more likely that UTG was slowplaying a flopped monster and didnt want to raise the turn because BB is going allin on the river anyway, so he doesnt want to knock you out.

sthief09

04-28-2005, 06:19 AM

the thing is the board is paired now, and the J doesn't really chance anything, unless he had a pair with a J kicker. I just didn't see it helping him, and the all in guy could have a lot of hands that probably didn't beat me, and couldn't 3-bet me even if I was ahead. if he wasn't about all in, it's a trivially easy fold. since he is, I can treat it like a headsup pot where I KNOW I'm paying $21.50 or whatever it is, and not a dime more. I also thought UTG could be reacting to UTG being all in. mabye I'm giving himt oo much credit. I'm really not sure what I think. I just had a feeling that my J was good I guess (it wasn't so no one get on me about being results oriented)

sthief09

04-28-2005, 06:21 AM

preflop did not lead to any mistake. if the preflop raise is a mistake, and the flop raise is a mistake, then they're completely separate. for whatever reason, I liked my hand at the time. I actually don't think it's so bad if better J's will fold.

I'd say preflop is marginal, but Nate has mentioned a bunch of times that he mixes in marginal raising hands to get action on his good ones. that's what I've been trying to do (and misapplying it left and right I'm sure). there's a lot you can get away with when your opponents play crap.

stigmata

04-28-2005, 06:34 AM

I can see the case for raising preflop, i just wouldn't do it in the SB. I think your better pulling these stunts in the BB (cheaper) or with position.

What I meant by the flop, was that the preflop raise made it more likely you were going to have a stab at a marginal flop. E.g. the marginal preflop raise can also cost you on later streets. Although on second thoughts, I think your right that the flop bet is OK.

sthief09

04-28-2005, 06:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I can see the case for raising preflop, i just wouldn't do it in the SB. I think your better pulling these stunts in the BB (cheaper) or with position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the opposite is true. I'd rather raise from the SB where I can some dead money in the pot.

Bluffoon

04-28-2005, 06:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
BB is almost all in. normally he's about average. pretty loose, kind of aggressive

UTG is weird. he's not that loose preflop and he's not that aggressive (I believe he was a 30/12), but he does some weird stuff postflop. he made a few odd overaggressive raises that seemed uncharactaristic for this type of player. his aggression factor was kind of low, but he was capable of getting out of line. my guess is that he has a pretty shallow understanding of the game and misapplies some concepts.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, MP calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, UTG calls, MP folds, Hero calls.

I don't like the flop bet, so please don't focus on it

Turn: (7 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (10 BB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG raises, Hero calls, BB raises $1.50 (All-In), UTG calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.45 BB

[/ QUOTE ]

Given your reads and the way the hand played out I think this is an easy call. This is a great spot for a protected pot bluff and this seems like the type of player to try it.

stigmata

04-28-2005, 06:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the opposite is true. I'd rather raise from the SB where I can some dead money in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not following /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Noodles

04-28-2005, 06:56 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think the opposite is true. I'd rather raise from the SB where I can some dead money in the pot.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not following

[/ QUOTE ]
i think he means knocking out the BB,

Noodles

04-28-2005, 06:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: (8 SB) 7, 9, 6 (4 players)
Hero bets, BB raises, UTG calls, MP folds, Hero calls.

I don't like the flop bet, so please don't focus on it

[/ QUOTE ]

what is wrong with the flop bet? 2 overcards,BD flush,gutshot,
if someone bets wont you have to call so isnt betting better,wouldnt it be worse if you check they all check and some crappy hand gets something to beat you?

Noodles

04-28-2005, 07:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
also thought UTG could be reacting to UTG being all in. mabye I'm giving himt oo much credit. I'm really not sure what I think. I just had a feeling that my J was good I guess (it wasn't so no one get on me about being results oriented)

[/ QUOTE ]

yea you see this a lot where people will call an all in with anything,as a lot of all ins will bet away with crap,
probably the guy hit his J on the end,maybe was worried about you and wanted to knock you out,
i think id have to call here in this specific situation, especially when you say this guy makes some daft plays from time to time

stigmata

04-28-2005, 07:16 AM

I'm still not following the logic... Sorry!

JTs is primarily a drawing hand - are we really bothered about knocking people out when we are out of position? Also, the BB (pretty loose) calls the majority of the time anyhow. I just don't see what this achieves other than table image type-stuff. And it's really not that difficult to get action on your decent hands…..

If you’re out of position, I still think your better off doing this in the BB. In the SB your getting 3:1.5 on your raise preflop. In the BB your getting 3:1 on your raise preflop. For pot inflation purposes (if you hit your draw) and for advertising purposes, it seems better value for money in the BB.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just trying to understand....

Noodles

04-28-2005, 08:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
JTs is primarily a drawing hand

[/ QUOTE ]
yea but JT can win by making top pair against 2 easy,
i know what your saying though, but the differing arguemnets for raising or calling get too nitty gritty for me /images/graemlins/cool.gif

i kind of agree with Ed Miller when he says there is too much analysis of preflop play,
personally sometimes i would raise this other times i wouldnt,but i dont think either way is "right" or "wrong"

MAxx

04-28-2005, 09:58 AM

i hate playing in these situations with an all-in player and another player. i frequently seem to make an overagressive move at the wrong time, or get paranoid and think the other guy is trying to blow me off the pot.

stigmata

04-28-2005, 10:10 AM

Yeah your right, Noodles, this is nitpicking....

Alobar

04-28-2005, 01:48 PM

I don't raise preflop here, not enough equity in this spot I don't think.

I like the flop bet and think it is completely standard after raising preflop. You've got a gutshot to the nuts, a backdoor draw, 3 good over cards outs, and a a good chance to fold a couple people out. If you get raised it isnt the end of the world, and if you dont it tells you alot about everyone elses hand and makes the turn/river alot easier to play.

turn = duh

river, given your descritoins I dont fold this either. BB could have anything, and UTG could be seeing BB is out of money and is trying to make a fancy play/missaply a concept, and raise you out. I think a call here shows profit long term, given that you know BB cant 3 bet.

gaming_mouse

04-28-2005, 06:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
the thing is the board is paired now, and the J doesn't really chance anything, unless he had a pair with a J kicker. I just didn't see it helping him,

[/ QUOTE ]

But isn't is possible that...

He might have been slowplaying from the start (77, 99).
He's slowplaying a turned 6 with 65s
He has J9.
As you mentioned, J7s is also a possibility, though I doubt he calls the flop with that.

sthief09

04-28-2005, 06:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the thing is the board is paired now, and the J doesn't really chance anything, unless he had a pair with a J kicker. I just didn't see it helping him,

[/ QUOTE ]

But isn't is possible that...

He might have been slowplaying from the start (77, 99).
He's slowplaying a turned 6 with 65s
He has J9.
As you mentioned, J7s is also a possibility, though I doubt he calls the flop with that.

[/ QUOTE ]

these are possibilities and all likely but the pot is big so I don't need to win that often

Nate tha' Great

04-28-2005, 06:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I can see the case for raising preflop, i just wouldn't do it in the SB. I think your better pulling these stunts in the BB (cheaper) or with position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the opposite is true. I'd rather raise from the SB where I can some dead money in the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah.

gaming_mouse

04-28-2005, 06:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]

these are possibilities and all likely but the pot is big so I don't need to win that often

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder if the numbers would bear the call out... what is his total range -- ie, all the other hands he could have played this way and might have bluffed with?

helpmeout

04-28-2005, 07:41 PM

I dont like the SB raise I'd prefer another caller.

Flop bet is bad you know this.

Why are you calling on the river? Do you really think your J is good here? look at the board. UTG probably has a 6 and BB could easily have T8. I dont think UTG is raising the river without at least a 6.

DeathDonkey

04-28-2005, 08:46 PM

I play this the same. If UTG called or folded the river, you were going to checkraise, yes?

-DeathDonkey

Your Mom

04-28-2005, 11:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Flop bet is bad you know this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't possibly disagree more. He has all kinds of draws plus they may fold. Anything other than betting here is just terrible.

helpmeout

04-29-2005, 06:02 AM

He is against 3 opponents not 2. This is 5/10 they arent all folding the flop especially since its a raised pot, too many players will connect with this flop or have overcards.

His draws arent that strong, his T is worthless. He has a J with potential redraws against him if a 5, Q, K or A hits on the river. His gutshot puts a 4 straight on the board so he wont be getting much action unless someone has a T.

This is a check/call hand especially out of position.