somebody please give me a clue [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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liucipher

04-28-2005, 02:29 AM

I'm pretty sure this is a boring hand for most of you, but I'm clueless when it gets to the bubble, so I'd appreciate any feedback (literally, any).

Blinds were weird, someone had been eliminated so SB just posted 200 and that was it. Still, Kx looks like better than average and I could use the 200 ...

Questions:

(1) Is this even worth playing? I'm incredibly confused by preflop hand selection when it gets 4 or 5 handed and you have 4-6XBB. If everyone folds to you and assuming no real reads and opponent chipstacks maybe 1.5-2 X yours, what is worth pushing? I've been reading all the posts I can find but people tend to hem and haw about all the different variables for specific hands/boards and I get lost.

(2) If raise, should I just push it all-in? Only rationale for the min-raise was that Villain was a tight preflop player prone to slowplaying (I watched him minraise preflop w/ 6 limpers in front of him w/ AA). I think he would have folded any marginal hand for another 200 out of position, but if he just flat called it could be anything from AA to JT.

(3) Honestly, how lame is my check on the flop? I panicked because it was bubble and I figured there would be better spots to risk all my chips (which was slightly true, I lost AK to 33 vs. the Villain the very next hand).

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1595)
BB (t3735)
UTG (t1385)
Hero (t1285)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises to t400, SB calls t200.

Flop: (t900) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t900) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets t200, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1100

Results in white below: 
No showdown. SB wins t1100.

calf

04-28-2005, 03:14 AM

You have to really convince people at the 11's to fold and minraising gives them a reason to play whatever crap they have.

This is an easy push especially since any other raise is such a huge chunk of your stack.

Benholio

04-28-2005, 03:23 AM

Calf is right, you should push this rather than min-raise. Min-raising is BAD, unless you are trying to trap with AA or something, and even then it is debatable.

You may or may not have heard of the "10xBB rule", but basically it says that if you have ~10 times the BB or less, any raise you make should be all-in. The reason is that if you raise less than all-in, you have so few chips left that you will definately call a re-raise, so you are better off maximizing the chances of your opponent(s) folding by just getting all of your chips in at once.

Having said all of that, K9 is plenty good to push with from the button with your stack size, and especially since you are the shortest stack.

elonkra

04-28-2005, 03:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm pretty sure this is a boring hand for most of you, but I'm clueless when it gets to the bubble, so I'd appreciate any feedback (literally, any).

Blinds were weird, someone had been eliminated so SB just posted 200 and that was it. Still, Kx looks like better than average and I could use the 200 ...

Questions:

(1) Is this even worth playing? I'm incredibly confused by preflop hand selection when it gets 4 or 5 handed and you have 4-6XBB. If everyone folds to you and assuming no real reads and opponent chipstacks maybe 1.5-2 X yours, what is worth pushing? I've been reading all the posts I can find but people tend to hem and haw about all the different variables for specific hands/boards and I get lost.

(2) If raise, should I just push it all-in? Only rationale for the min-raise was that Villain was a tight preflop player prone to slowplaying (I watched him minraise preflop w/ 6 limpers in front of him w/ AA). I think he would have folded any marginal hand for another 200 out of position, but if he just flat called it could be anything from AA to JT.

(3) Honestly, how lame is my check on the flop? I panicked because it was bubble and I figured there would be better spots to risk all my chips (which was slightly true, I lost AK to 33 vs. the Villain the very next hand).

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (4 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

SB (t1595)
BB (t3735)
UTG (t1385)
Hero (t1285)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
2 folds, Hero raises to t400, SB calls t200.

Flop: (t900) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t900) A/images/graemlins/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets t200, Hero folds.

Final Pot: t1100

Results in white below: 
No showdown. SB wins t1100. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a push or fold guy at this point now (10xBB rule), and I think your check w/position on the flop explains why. You bet nearly a 3rd of your stack preflop and put yourself in a position where you have to (1) make no play at the pot and thus play so weak as to concede; (2) make a weak play at the pot and hope not to get reraised because of your perceived weakness; or (3) make a strong play that commits you to the pot in spite of the fact that you don't have a hand and you've given your opponent a chance to see three cards for cheap.

Someone said FE is what it's all about. I'd push or fold. If you get called by anything but a big pair, you're not that far behind, and there's obviously always the chance that you'll pick up $200. If you minraise or limp, you're in a tough spot. I'm not saying you push here, especially with dimiinished blinds, but I think this is a push or fold type decision here.

syka16

04-28-2005, 03:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I'm incredibly confused by preflop hand selection when it gets 4 or 5 handed and you have 4-6XBB. If everyone folds to you and assuming no real reads and opponent chipstacks maybe 1.5-2 X yours, what is worth pushing?

[/ QUOTE ]

True for most cases and a good starting point
<10BB in BB push any two!!! on button push top 30%. CO push top 15%. Tighten up when BB is largest stack. Loosen up when it's the short stack.

EMcWilliams

04-28-2005, 03:34 AM

Its called push-fold mode...Right here, you have 6xBB, and the SB is also short. Here is an easy push. Frankly stated, he will most likely not call. It is here the gap concept is most applied. It take a stronger hand to call an all-in then go all-in. The blinds are large enough that stealing them has some meaning. On the bubble, life is tough, and there are a lot of borderline decisions. It is making the best ones that separate the good from the bad. I like a push here with the SB weak, and the BB strong, just waiting for you or the SB to bust.

applejuicekid

04-28-2005, 04:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Tighten up when BB is largest stack. Loosen up when it's the short stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this the other way around?

A big stack doesn't want to risk losing his chip lead, and a small stack needs to double up and will have good odds to call.

syka16

04-28-2005, 04:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tighten up when BB is largest stack. Loosen up when it's the short stack.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this the other way around?

A big stack doesn't want to risk losing his chip lead, and a small stack needs to double up and will have good odds to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. You do have lower FE against the shortstack but stealing a blind from him greatly increases your chances to make it ITM. Stealing from the BS doesn't have the same effect. Also, you don't always have to be ahead of the SS's calling range to make it +EV. Short stacks tend to loosen up their calling range in relation to the size of their stack until they blind down to the point where it's still +EV to raise anytwo knowing that you will be called.

applejuicekid

04-28-2005, 04:46 AM

Good point. But doesn't doubling up the small stack greatly decrease you chances of making the money? Also, what does this have to do with being tighter or looser? As to the short stack calling if he's very likely to call, you can't steal from him.

syka16

04-28-2005, 05:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Good point. But doesn't doubling up the small stack greatly decrease you chances of making the money? Also, what does this have to do with being tighter or looser? As to the short stack calling if he's very likely to call, you can't steal from him.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean why do you need a different range to steal against different stacks? A SS is only likely to call when they're down to <4BB. Steal with top50% when you suspect that they will call with any two.

applejuicekid

04-28-2005, 05:21 AM

I think the range of hands to steal with is more situation and player dependent than stack dependent. Atleast enough so that a general rule like "tigther against big stacks and looser against small stacks" does not hold true.

While this may be true most of the time (I'm not sure if it is) there are many times when the opposite is true. I can think of situations where I would play tighter against a big stack and other situations where I would play looser.

mlee

04-28-2005, 05:28 AM

I would close my eyes and push pre flop. If I was SB I probably would have tried a stop and go. He didn't do that and his bet on the turn looks funny, only 200 into a 900 pot. I'm not sure what this means. Weak bet after you checked the flop or trying to get you to call a small bet after you missed the flop. I think this is read dependant.

syka16

04-28-2005, 05:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
I think the range of hands to steal with is more situation and player dependent than stack dependent. Atleast enough so that a general rule like "tigther against big stacks and looser against small stacks" does not hold true.

While this may be true most of the time (I'm not sure if it is) there are many times when the opposite is true. I can think of situations where I would play tighter against a big stack and other situations where I would play looser.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course there are cases where it's the opposite. But on the bubble, more often than not, a looser range is required for stealing in the same possition with the same stack size against the short stack until the point at which he is willing to call with top50%.