AQs - completely miss the flop so I raise

[27offsooot]

UTG - LP
MP2 - Reasonable, but not good read, little LP
MP3 - 45/7 over 140 hands
SB - LAG over 50 hands or so

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif. CO posts a blind of $3.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (16 SB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises...

cap PF? I had an equity edge, but seeing how MP3 reacted and having the ability to act right after sb made me not do it. Bad?

[billyjex]

With absolutely no redraws and only my pair outs (probably very tainted) I'm pretty much done with this on the flop, despite the ginourmous pot.

[Isura]

I usually call preflop instead of cap. Raising is marginally okay if you think you can buy the button, but this is unlikely on this flop. Also, you almost have no chance of getting a free look at the river against a lag. I would fold.

[27offsooot]

I actually thought that there was a decent chance my hand was best here and my 2nd nut no hand would stand up against the LAG. When I called PF, I had every intention of raising a lot of flops here. Calling seemed to suck, I didn't want to fold in this pot, so I raised.

[Pominos]

Calling pf is fine.
Fold the flop...
What do you intend to do on the turn if you get called (or get 3-bet by SB)?

[crunchy1]

[ QUOTE ]
When I called PF, I had every intention of raising a lot of flops here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why was this your plan? To isolate the LAG on the flop? If so, why not face the field PF with 3 (or 2) cold. It's a lot more likely that AQs will hold up UI against only 1 or 2 players. It's also a lot more likely that the original PF raiser and the limp-callers will dump PF than on the flop when they might have picked something up with their junk hands.

Raising a flop that you completely miss into a PF raiser and 2 limp-callers seems like spewing to me.

[Dariel86]

A fold here is good.

[HajiShirazu]

I like a cap preflop if you have a good read that he's a lag (not pt read), as yes, people do fold to a cap when they've put in one bet, which is what you want, and also you usually have the best hand.

[crunchy1]

FWIW - I think your PF play was OK here but, not for the reason of intending to isolate the LAG on the flop (if in fact that was your intention). I normally advocate raising big, suited Aces from the blinds against several players while usually just calling from the blinds when the big Ace is not suited.

In this case I think calling might be best. The reason being is that even though AQs can be a great hand winning many times with just top pair it also has speculative qualities - namely in the flush/broadway straight possibilities.

If you 3-bet PF you are likely going to isolate yourself between a LAG acting first on the post-flop rounds and a PF raiser acting after you. You're going to be out-of-position and trapped between two aggressors. With this being the case I much rather call PF and let the other two limpers (UTG+MP2) come along for the ride. With a little luck you can use your position with these other limpers calling to really extract a lot of bets if you flop to a monster hand/draw.

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW - I think your PF play was OK here but, not for the reason of intending to isolate the LAG on the flop (if in fact that was your intention). I normally advocate raising big, suited Aces from the blinds against several players while usually just calling from the blinds when the big Ace is not suited.

In this case I think calling might be best. The reason being is that even though AQs can be a great hand winning many times with just top pair it also has speculative qualities - namely in the flush/broadway straight possibilities.

If you 3-bet PF you are likely going to isolate yourself between a LAG acting first on the post-flop rounds and a PF raiser acting after you. You're going to be out-of-position and trapped between two aggressors. With this being the case I much rather call PF and let the other two limpers (UTG+MP2) come along for the ride. With a little luck you can use your position with these other limpers calling to really extract a lot of bets if you flop to a monster hand/draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would have been cold capping PF, not 3-betting. I think I could have knocked out at least one of the two limpers had I capped, so I understand doing it for this reason and for value. I think, more than anything, I wanted to see how much the first raiser liked his hand. If he had capped this PF, i would have been out on this flop without a second thought. However, when he didn't and the flop was somewhat ragged, I thought that facing the three behind me with two bets and the possibility of a three bet by LAG would knock out a lot of hands. I should've included numbers for the LAG as he wasn't ridiculous (40/20) and hadn't gotten out of line post-flop from what I'd seen. I'm probably being results oriented as the three behind me folded and I took it down on the turn. You're all probably right about letting it go on the flop, but I just liked my chances on this flop given the flop texture.

[chief444]

I don't mind this line at all.

edit...I assume if MP3 caps your plan of raising a flop like this one changes? Or do you still take a shot? I think with MP3 not capping preflop there's a reasonable chance you have the best hand and you certainly may get MP3 to fold another AQ or AK, if not with the flop raise with a turn bet. I'd back off immediately if I was coldcalled in more than one spot though.

[PokerBob]

I often raise the frop with overs to buy a free one and get rid of the faint-of-heart, but I'm not sure it works in this case as the pot is large so the donks behind you will have odds to draw, not to mention a 3-bet would eat. I think in this case I call and ping a red Q on the turn.

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]
A fold here is good.

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/blush.gif

[crunchy1]

I think if we're concerned about post-flop play then you need to include some post-flop numbers - especially for the LAG and MP2. Sounds like these guys are able to laydown after the flop - in which case I think your play is fine!!

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]
I think if we're concerned about post-flop play then you need to include some post-flop numbers - especially for the LAG and MP2. Sounds like these guys are able to laydown after the flop - in which case I think your play is fine!!

[/ QUOTE ]

If I had a better read, then probably. But 50 hands isn't much and even though LAG didn't do anything ridiculous, I didn't think his aggro factor would be very accurate. All I remember while MTing was that he hadn't gotten out of line post-flop. As for the initial raiser, I should've had a better read and included post-flop numbers, but I didn't. And I'm at work, so I don't remember now. Good point though.

[Paxosmotic]

For those recommending a fold (which I'd agree with), how much of the flop would Hero need to get in order to make continuing with the hand correct? A facecard for a backdoor straight? Any club? Both? At what point can you miss the flop but still have enough outs to continue profitably?

[ckessel]

I'd cap it preflop. If it's worth cold-calling 2 bets, it's got to be worth capping.

The flop. Meh, I probably do the same under the SSH principle of fighting for big pots. I fold if it's 2 bets back to me, call for 1. Fold the turn unimproved.

Nice post, tough hand.

[fluorescenthippo]

Im pretty new at limit so i guess I am missing something.
Why cant you fold this preflop? I know its only 2 bets to call but a raise and then a reraise suggests you are beat. also, you have no folding equity by only calling and bad position.

[Paxosmotic]

It's close against two raisers, but you've still got plenty of equity to see this flop. No folding this preflop.

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]
Im pretty new at limit so i guess I am missing something.
Why cant you fold this preflop? I know its only 2 bets to call but a raise and then a reraise suggests you are beat. also, you have no folding equity by only calling and bad position.

[/ QUOTE ]

PF decisions in limit are all about relative value. AQs is already a really good hand and the raise came from a non-rock (raises 7% of hands) and the 3-bet came from a LAG (raises 20% of hands). So I may be up against inferior hands to begin with. Even if I'm not, only a few hands are really kicking my butt right now. In addition, I already have one bet invested in the pot and there is some dead money from crappy limpers that may pad the pot further. Expecting to get 13:2 or 17:3, with a really good hand that plays multi-way, there is no way in hell I'm folding this PF. I think capping has some merit, but I thought playing this like a donk and cold calling for information and for the ability to isolate a lag on the flop was best.

About the position, I actually liked my position in this hand as long as MP didn't cap it behind me. I was first to act after an overly aggressive player with weak, easy to read players behind me. I'm not by any means saying my flop raise was best (even though I think it was), but if I had any part of that board, raising and facing a bunch of players with two cold and a player who raised behind them will likely drive them out and get me HU in a big pot which would be awesome even with ace high.