KK river fold

[Nate tha' Great]

Decided to dick around in a 6-max game for an hour this afternoon and the following hand came up.

I have K /images/graemlins/club.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif and open in MP. The Button cold-calls, and a decent player in the SB 3-bets. I cap, both the Button and the SB call. 13 SB in the pot. Unfortantely, I don't know the Button all that well, but he hadn't done anything too out of line in the ten minutes or so I'd been at the table.

Flop Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif T /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

I bet and both opponents call.

Turn 8 /images/graemlins/club.gif. I bet, the Button calls, and the SB folds.

River J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I bet, Button raises. Like 12.5 big bets in the pot, I fold.

[bunky9590]

Tough fold bro.

he floated right? Could very well be a QJ that just ot there, or AK for that fact. After all the strength you showed PF, and you betting the flop, turn and river OOP he's got to put you on a hand. His raise there is mostlikely not a bluff, and mostlikely is not a Big Queen. He's expecting you to call that raise which makes it more likely its not a bluff. Man thats a tough laydown though.

[stripsqueez]

maybe KQ or AQ that was going for the overcalls on the earlier betting rounds ? - maybe some random river bluff

if i have a clear view beyond aggravation i find folds like this but a lot of the time i call

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[theBruiser500]

with the PRF action he can put you on AA KK QQ AK, strong hands that would probably call his river raise.

on the other hand, KJ and and flush draws did not make it

[sthief09]

I could use some explanation, because that's a fold I make every time without a read.

since he's unknown, I think it's important to tell us what game it was. clearly at 1/2 6-max it's a lot closer to a fold than 10/20 6-max

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I could use some explanation, because that's a fold I make every time without a read.

since he's unknown, I think it's important to tell us what game it was. clearly at 1/2 6-max it's a lot closer to a fold than 10/20 6-max

[/ QUOTE ]

This was one of the weird British limits at interpoker. Like $36.31-$72.62, technically speaking.

[sthief09]

how does the typical $36.31 player play on that site compared to Party 10/20?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
how does the typical $36.31 player play on that site compared to Party 10/20?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've only played in this particular game a couple of times. In general, there seems to be a bit more diversity of styles, and somewhat less blind aggression than at the Party limits.

[rory]

Good fold.

[Alobar]

4 to a straight on board, is a good spot to bluff. I can see someone with AQ or KQ make this play, calling down and then raising river cuz you are less likely to get 3 bet. Its could also possibly be a bluff by KJ.Is a 9 going to raise tho now that AK makes a straight?? I think this also keeps a 2 pair from raising, because with some good showdown value it would be a bad play.

So its either a bluff or the straight. 1 time in 12, I dunno. Folding I think is right, but I also think its close, and I prolly call to satisfy my curoisity (er, I mean to get a read /images/graemlins/wink.gif)....but then plays like that is prolly why im still playing mid limit.


screw it, Im still thinking about it, and Im calling, he doesnt have AK, he doesnt have 2 pair, and he doesnt have a set. I doubt a 9 without a pair or draw calls this flop, that limits things. yeah, hes bluffing 1 in 12....Im calling.

[muzungu]

Nate-

What about check/calling the river? Soooo many of his medium-strength hands that he might have been calling with just got a lot bigger- there is not much left that he will call the river with that you are beating.

Hands you beat that will call: AQ, KQ for sure. AJ/KJ??
Hands that beat you: QQ-88, AK, QJ-Q8, JT-J8...

Now, if you are familiar with this player and can confidently fold to a raise, then bet away. But your unfamilairity with villain and the small number of hands that pay you off lead me to prefer check/call to bet/fold.

-muz

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Hi Nate Tha' Great,

On Interpoker you're up against a lot of donkish flop and turn raises, but a river raise on any site is usually a legit one. I'm suprised you dont' think this is a easy fold (i'm assuming you thought it was closer becuase you posted it)

[Nate tha' Great]

This isn't actually one of my hands. Another 2+2er sent it to me and we thought we'd have some fun and I'd post it under my name. I have played in this specific game before so my comments about game texture etc aren't total b.s.

When he first sent me the hand, I thought it was a pretty easy fold, but after thinking about it some more, I convinced myself that it might not be. For one thing, I don't think it's especially likely that the opponent has a 9. Now, there are still lots of obvious, legitimate hands that he might have that crush but that stirs up the bluff:legit ratio just a bit.

There is a spade draw on the flop and neither the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif nor the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif have been accounted for. This doesn't work out to *all* that many hands but if he does hold a spade draw, the J makes for a pretty appetizing bluff. On the other hand, I don't think it's all that likely that he has say KQ here and decides to try and push me off something; while that is really no better nor no worse than a bluff with a busted flush draw, I just don't think people play that way as often with hands that have some theoretical kind of showdown value.

Beyond that, it comes down to table image and player read issues that we don't really have access to here. I do think, ironically, that the people who think this is an easy fold are the ones who should be most inclined to call down.

[twankerr]

Why isn't it possible that the Button had a hand that beat you on the turn, but wanted to go for an overcall from the SB?

[kiddo]

[ QUOTE ]
I do think, ironically, that the people who think this is an easy fold are the ones who should be most inclined to call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, good point.

Its like when u are running bad at a table, then u have to call a little more because now u are the target that everyone is aiming at. And how fun is it calling when u never hit? This was also the point that Malmuth did about Ciaffones "Middle Limit Poker". Not that Malmuth thought each of his advice was wrong, but if someone in a tough game did all those marginal folds that Ciaffone did he would be the target for bluffers and would have to stop folding so much.

[maxpowers21]

I see this as an easy call. Now I'm speaking as a 6max 5-10, 10-20 party player so maybe one can make an argument that the player styles for these games are much less prone to try a river raise bluff.

But, you have to account that only 8% of the time you have to be good here to call down. 1:12.5 ish?

The only way i fold this is if i know he is a rock and won't raise the river without a monster made hand. In 6max games i find very very few players that match this discription.

Even assuming he is a solid player( which he probably isn't because he cold called the raise 2nd to enter the pot), and wont ever river bluff raise, isn't it possible that he would try and value raise 8% of his hands here that still lose to an overpair? like AQ KQ.

Even if i think i'm beat here i'd still like to not fold to a river raise after capping pf,and betting every street, just so people won't take pot shots at me later.

This is my own opinion, but I like to error on the side of calling down too much and show a small -Ev, then risk making some bad no calls and losing some big pots. It also protects against people taking pot shots at me, which is very important in 6max.