Adding hands

[twang]

Party 2/4, +8000 hands and my VP$IP is 14.73. I play according to the SSH tight games recommendations. I know I need to work on stealing blinds, but other than that I don't know how to increase VP$IP. Ideas?

/twang

[mannika]

I'm currently having the same problem, and I believe that in my case it's that I'm not defending/completing enough from the blinds. Keep in mind that 20% of the time you are in the blinds, and therefore this has a huge impact on your VPIP. If you are defending from each blind 10% less than you should be, this has the impact of lowering you overall VPIP by 2%.

Hope this helps.

[chief444]

From someone who plays close to 19-20% VP$IP at 3/6, I must say that I think there's a little too much emphasis on the boards sometimes on loosening up just for the sake of stats. I know I've been a big proponent of looser play (loose being like 18-20 VP$IP) but I don't mean to mislead anyone. It's not like I just intentionally play at 19-20 VP$IP. I just look at each decision and that's what I end up with. So I'd focus more just on your game and postflop play and once you get a better feel for things I think what hands to add, when, and why will become more obvious.

To answer your question I think the biggest difference lies in blind play and late position play along with isolation type plays.

[Perseus]

Around 15% is a great place to start off at 2/4, but once you get a decent amount of hands under your belt there are a few things to do to raise your vpip.

The first is to not ONLY go by what one particular book tells you, you need to incorporate many different suggestions to suit your particular game. There are many great players who post here that are over 20% VPIP because they have developed a particular style over time. So, when you start adding more hands do it because it is +EV, not because you are trying to get your stats to an "ideal" level.

My suggestion would be to buy HFAP, LLHE, and get an idea of starting hands from more than one perspective.

The second thing is that you are probably not stealing/defending enough. My VPIP was around 15 for a long time, but when I figured out when to steal/defend it rose to 17%. The key is using playerview effectively and knowing when the blinds are tight/the late position stealer is lose so you can act accordingly. If some maniac keeps stealing your blinds then go ahead and three bet him...but if some tight rock is trying to steal your blinds you might want to think twice. Remember, play the opponents and not the cards.

Third, post hands. Post hands. Post hands. It is one thing to read other people's posted hands and think "he should have folded" but when someone flames you for calling that bet you shouldn't have you don't forget it /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Lastly, understand pot odds. This is a concept many players "think" they understand right after they start playing, but the vast majority of players have NO CLUE what pot odds truly mean. To best explain this concept I will defer to Ed Miller's great post about "why you guys aren't crushing the micro limit games" which can be found in the FAQ of the micro limit section. Do yourself a favor and read this. While it doesn't directly effect your VPIP, you will get a better understand of when to play those suited connecters or small pocket pairs out of position.

That's all for now. Good luck.

Jon

[shark6]

I used to have this same sub 15 VPIP and a sub 7 PFR. To get the VPIP up, generally, I had to add the following hands (dependant on the number and skill level of the other people already in the pot):

In EP:
22-77
QJo
JTo
QTs
J9s

In MP I added:
QTo
T9o
KTs
Q9s

In LP and Blinds I added:
Any 2 T and above
Axs
Defending blinds more

To get my PFR up I added the occasional situational raise. Like raising first or second in and blind steals with any A or 2 cards above 9.

WARNING: This got my VPIP and PFR number in line with goals, however, I entered a serious LAG phase and hit a 200BB in 10k hands downswing. My aggression numbers all rose above 4. But, once I got my aggression number back into line, I’ve been a solid wining player since at 2/4.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
In EP:
QJo
JTo


[/ QUOTE ]
yuck.

[shark6]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
In EP:
QJo
JTo


[/ QUOTE ]
yuck.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depending on the quality of the other players at the table? yes.

Always? no.

[chief444]

I think QJo and TJo pretty much suck in EP against any opponents. If the table's that loose do you really want to be playing these hands OOP? The benefit of having poor opponents is really magnified by position.

[shark6]

If UTG is passive and limps in.

Would you call UTG+1 with either QJo and TJo?

How about if UTG and UTG+1 limp in. Do you call in UTG+2?

[twang]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I guess playing more hands from LP and the blinds is something I need to (re-)learn.

Another thing: I have recently changed from Pacific to Party as my main site. As you probably know, 2/4 at Pacific and 2/4 at Party is not the same game. Pacific is waaaay softer and you can easily limp with Axs, baby pairs and suited connectors from just about anywhere. The more laggro games at Party has probably made me tight up a bit too much.

(FWIW, I have way more hands than 8000 at 2/4 - I just recently bought PT.)

/twang

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
If UTG is passive and limps in.

Would you call UTG+1 with either QJo and TJo?

How about if UTG and UTG+1 limp in. Do you call in UTG+2?

[/ QUOTE ]
No, I wouldn't likely play in either case. I really like having position with these or else getting in cheaply from the blinds.

[Perseus]

Adding hands like JTo and QJo in early position is great and all IN THE RIGHT GAME, but many times it is not correct and NOT the best way to get your VPIP up.

Depending on the game context either folding, calling, or raising these hands can all be considered correct. If you autoplay these to bring your stats up you are making the fundemental error of playing the cards and not the people.

[Bill C]

[ QUOTE ]
(snip) To best explain this concept I will defer to Ed Miller's great post about "why you guys aren't crushing the micro limit games" which can be found in the FAQ of the micro limit section. Do yourself a favor and read this. While it doesn't directly effect your VPIP, you will get a better understand of when to play those suited connecters or small pocket pairs out of position.

That's all for now. Good luck.

Jon

[/ QUOTE ]

I looked in the FAQ but didn't find anything like that. I'd really like to read it.

You are referring to the FAQ shown at the top of the page, right? It seems to have mostly procedural things in it about how the site works, and nothing on playing.

Any help would be appreciated!

bill c

[SeaEagle]

[ QUOTE ]
In EP:
22-77
QJo
JTo
QTs
J9s

In MP I added:
QTo
T9o
KTs
Q9s


[/ QUOTE ]
Yuk. I run about 18%VPIP and I don't, as a rule, play any of these hands. In fact, I generally fold some hands better than those on the list.

Twang, can you post your VPIP by position? That might lend some statistical insight.

Also, strictly following SSHE Tight Guidelines is going to make you a little to tight for SS on Party. You've got to recognize when there's 3 limpers in front of you and you're going to get 6-8 on the flop and it's ok to come in w/ suited one-gappers and offsuit connectors.

[twang]

Ok, here you go:
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2005-1/938438/pt.jpg

I'm still an absolute PT-newbie and I hadn't noticed this feature. It looks like I'm looser in EP than in LP. WTF..?

Any comments on these numbers would be appreciated.

/twang

[Bill C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
(snip) To best explain this concept I will defer to Ed Miller's great post about "why you guys aren't crushing the micro limit games" which can be found in the FAQ of the micro limit section. Do yourself a favor and read this. While it doesn't directly effect your VPIP, you will get a better understand of when to play those suited connecters or small pocket pairs out of position.

That's all for now. Good luck.

Jon

[/ QUOTE ]

I looked in the FAQ but didn't find anything like that. I'd really like to read it.

You are referring to the FAQ shown at the top of the page, right? It seems to have mostly procedural things in it about how the site works, and nothing on playing.

Any help would be appreciated!

bill c

[/ QUOTE ]

Never mind, I found it using the "search" feature. It wasn't in the FAQ, at least what I found wasn't.

bc

[Nick Royale]

You're raising way too few hands. Add 5% to the PFR umbers and we'll get near what you should have. And add even more to the CO and button numbers.

I think VPIP looks better, but I'm not very good at positional play. You should be playing more hands from LP.

[Perseus]

You need to start taking position very seriously. You are probably limping way to much from EP.

[Perseus]

The post I was refering to is in a link at the bottom of the FAQ, and it's called Ed's Crushing LHE Post.

All of those posts listed are great tools to use, and should be read many times.

They helped me a great deal.

Good luck.

[Perseus]

[ QUOTE ]
You've got to recognize when there's 3 limpers in front of you and you're going to get 6-8 on the flop and it's ok to come in w/ suited one-gappers and offsuit connectors.

[/ QUOTE ]

[twang]

It's silly low, I know. But besides stealing-situations and raising more semi-good hands first in, I have no idea how to up my pf raise. I think my raising requirements are typical, usually from AJo and KQo in EP and 99 and up in MP.

/twang

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
It's silly low, I know. But besides stealing-situations and raising more semi-good hands first in, I have no idea how to up my pf raise. I think my raising requirements are typical, usually from AJo and KQo in EP and 99 and up in MP

[/ QUOTE ]
My PFR was like yours when I started, but by reading this on this forum and gaining understanding your PFR will go up. I start raise ATo/KJo in MP1/MP2 for example. I'm raising plenty of PP's from later position. 99 I raise as standard if first in not UTG (many raises UTG but i just limp so far at 2/4). I add 88 after 2 folds before me (assuming 10-handed). Of course this is depending on the opponents, but you might get the idea. I raise A5s and above from LP with 1 limper, QTo from button after 1 limper and so on...

This quote has been helpfull:
"If someone told me that I should never be the second one into the pot unless I raise, I would have a lot more money today." - Vehn

[Perseus]

[ QUOTE ]

This quote has been helpfull:
"If someone told me that I should never be the second one into the pot unless I raise, I would have a lot more money today." - Vehn

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to put this in context. There is a huge difference of this in NL and Limit Holdem. There are plenty of times that you should limp second in, but there are plenty of times you should raise.

[Nick Royale]

[ QUOTE ]
You need to put this in context. There is a huge difference of this in NL and Limit Holdem. There are plenty of times that you should limp second in, but there are plenty of times you should raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, you're right. Of course raising 2nd isn't always correct. But it gets you to realise you should be raising much more hands 2nd in, especially from LP. I actually think OP would increase his winrate by starting to raise every hand when 2nd in from CO and button rather than playing like he does now. But that's also far from optimal. Limping hands like KTo/QTo/QJo/77/A6s etc. from LP 2nd in is most often poor poker.

[ckessel]

[ QUOTE ]
To answer your question I think the biggest difference lies in blind play and late position play along with isolation type plays.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seconded. Some stats I've seen here for good BB/Hour winners at ~19 VPIP show pretty loose in CO, button, and blinds. About 20/25/30/30 in those positions respectively. If you're averaging say 27VPIP in those 4 positions, then to get back to 19VPIP overall you need 13.66 VPIP from the other 6 positions. Obviously it's a scale, UTG being creaky wallet tight.

My VPIP, if graphed, looks like a hockey stick. Low rise of VPIP from UTG to MP3, then a real ramp up for the CO/BT and blinds.