I made the jump to the 30's and here is how I compare to the 20's

[ripped]

Now correct me if I'm wrong but the 30's are much better players than the 20's. Maybe it's because I am playing in the mornings but it seems that you never have 4 people gone before round 4. Now I have only played 30 of these so far but I am finding these much harder than the 20's because of the fact that by round 5 there is usually 5-6 players still around. When playing the 20's by round 5 you are lucky if it's not 3 way. I have been 3 way in round 4 in the 20's before a few times.

My question is this.. Am I just playing at the wrong times for the 30's? Are the fish all playing later on or is this normal? I wont say that the players are better just more patient overall by far.

Any comments from anyone is great..thx

btw I am still winning at this level in my tiny sample size so it's not like I am out of my league.

[FishBurger]

[ QUOTE ]
My question is this.. Am I just playing at the wrong times for the 30's? Are the fish all playing later on or is this normal?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Play in the evenings.

One difference I've noticed between the $22s and the $33s is that you are more likely to run into a tricky player in the $33s. Overall, the players are better at the $33s, but it's not a huge jump.

[ripped]

Ok I will play in the evenings.. Now I have to change my sleeping again..dammit. Thx for the reply.

I think overall the players in the mornings on the 30's are twice as patient as the players at night in the 20's.

[Voltron87]

there are a lot of players who are too tight at level 25/50, take advantage of this. irie made a post about how the 33s might be a logjam of better players, you might want to check it out. a lot of these players still in are pretty weak tight, they are staying in longer but that doesn't mean they are very good.

[Newt_Buggs]

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there are a lot of players who are too tight at level 25/50, take advantage of this.

[/ QUOTE ]
thats a good point, maybe i'll try opening it up more on level 3 and see how it feels

[dfscott]

That's interesting.

I took a shot at the 33s over the last few nights and couldn't really tell any difference. If anything it seemed easier to me than the 22s. Probably just positive variance (my ITM and ROI are unspeakably -- and unsustainably -- high).

OTOH, it could be that I'm getting a lot of negative variance at the 22s -- they have been really tough for me lately. It sounds like what you experienced at the 33s -- I've been getting to level 5 with 6-7 players a LOT.

I've got 50 buy-ins for the 33s, so I'm thinking about staying there unless there's a reason to drop down (i.e., a big OOTM streak, which I've probably guaranteed by making this post). My hardware setup only allows me to 4-table, so it's really the only way for me to increase my $/hr.

[Mr_J]

Ok I'm not sure I've had any greater experience than the players that have already commented. I've played nearly 1k all up (pretty evenly split between the 2 buyins). My impression (this isn't results oriented) is that the difference between the 2 when playing peak hours isn't that great, but it is significant during slow hours.

There are alot more serious players at the $33s than the $22s. The $33s are a chokepoint (look for greater explanation in one of Irie's recent threads). Most serious players won't spend much time at the $22s. They quickly move up the low limits to the $33s. Quite a few won't move up to the $55s, and many that do will still stay at the $33s for a longer time than that they spent at the $22s.

Another thing to consider is multitabling. People are more likely to be multitabling (ie 4+) at the $33s than the $22s. This might be because they were at the $33s by the time they were ready for it, or because many are quite happy to stay at the $33s and add more tables. Generally you improve then add tables (ie alot of serious players were only 1-2-3 tabling when playing the $22s, but many were 4+ playing the $33s).

So to sum in up, I think there are many more serious players at the $33s than at the $22s, and those serious players will be playing a larger number of tables.

How does this fit in time of day? Well when there are 70k online, there will be plenty of fish at the low limits. There are so many fish, that the fish:pro (by pro I just mean any decent snger) ratio at the $33s and $22s won't be that different. Close enough that $33s are more profitable, but different enough that they aren't THAT much more profitable.

During the morning with 15k on. There are alot less fish playing. During slow hours, serious players will represent a larger % of the total players. This is because serious players are more likely to be able to play at these times than fish (alot of serious players don't 'work', most fish do). So, with alot less fish on, the ratio of fish:pro becomes much more significant. Significant enough that there may not be any different in hourly EV between the $22s and $33s during slow hours.

This is my opinion of it anyway.

[hummusx]

After a small sample size at both buyins over the last 2 weeks (250 22s and 70 33s) and reading this thread and a couple others, I've concluded that most of the perceived differences between the two are variance related (as dfscott mentioned). Your observation that there were rarely many left in the 22s by level 4/5 was exactly the opposite of what I was observing. I don't think you're wrong, and I don't think I'm wrong. I just think that over the sample sizes we are talking about we can't make any meaningful observations.

I have no doubt that it varies by time. It probably also varies by day and many other random factors. The first night I played the 33s, I was shocked at all the maniacs - I thought the 33s were flooded with them. Last night they played almost exactly like the 22s. So who knows.

I think the best comment I've seen was on another thread I had started where someone said that the 33s are just like the 22s with one decent player swapped out for one bad player.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
During the morning with 15k on. There are alot less fish playing. During slow hours, serious players will represent a larger % of the total players. This is because serious players are more likely to be able to play at these times than fish (alot of serious players don't 'work', most fish do). So, with alot less fish on, the ratio of fish:pro becomes much more significant. Significant enough that there may not be any different in hourly EV between the $22s and $33s during slow hours.

[/ QUOTE ]

This logic makes sense to me. I wonder if it makes sense to play the 22s during the day and switch to the 33s at night. I used to do that during my limit days with the 2/4 and 3/6 game for the same reasons you mention above.

[p0t_Commit3d]

Does anyone have any serious data to base any of this on?

Or links ? A search was too vauge for me(I got too many hits).

I am also thinking of rapidly moving up. I have killed the 20s with my small sample size ~You feffers always call me on this like I dont already know~ I am thinking of moving up to the 50s and skipping the 30s. That extra 200 chips is niice for a player like me. I didnt even notice it was at the 50s too. I thought it started at the 100s. I am 0-4 at the 100s.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
Does anyone have any serious data to base any of this on?

[/ QUOTE ]

No -- just about everything in this thread is subjective.

[Mr_J]

"I am thinking of moving up to the 50s and skipping the 30s."

I was going to do this. I wanted to move to 8tabling first though. Instead I've taken a break from sngs to play O8 for a bit.

I don't see $33s as necessary. If you can kill the $22s you'll do very well at the $33s, and should do decently at the $55s. Just a matter of bankroll I think.

Do a search for recent posts by Irieguy. He made a thread maybe a month ago about $22s vs $33s vs $55s. I don't have much experience at the $55s (other than a impression from a 30 sng sample), but I feel pretty strongly about the $22 vs $33 and have so for a couple of months (ever since I started playing the $22s).

[1C5]

I know you have 8 tabled the 22s lots, how do you find that? I just got my 2nd monitor and tried 8 tabling the 11s last night just for fun. Hectic but not impossible and I am sure it will get easier as I do it more.

How has your ROI dropped at the 22s from 4 tables to 8 tables and how much has your $/hour increased?

[Mr_J]

"I know you have 8 tabled the 22s lots"

Nope, hardware only allows for 6tabling unless I want serious overlap. I do multitable the proper way, ie always have 6 running. It's basically the same as playing 8 in sets.

"Hectic but not impossible and I am sure it will get easier as I do it more."

Multitabling is multitabling. Most people who can 4table could probally 6-8table. If you can multitask well (ie play 4tables very comfortably) then I think it's just something you get used to. The more you do it, the more efficient you get and the more tables you can handle. I doubt the ROI drop from 4 to 8 is anything but marginal. Definately nowhere near enough for adding tables not to be hugely profitable. I say if you can handle it well, keep on adding tables until you can't.

[Blarg]

I'm finding multi-tabling SNG's much harder than limit games, where I used to do 8 very easily. In SNG's, it gets notably harder once I pass 4 for me. When out of the money, it's not a big deal, but when ITM and your decisions really count, tables seem to have more of an individual character that I can't just auto-pilot through. I can do six okay, but 8 is quite difficult. So for now, I'm sticking to 4 with the occasional indulgence in six.

Maybe as I get better in SNG's that will change. But for now, I think doing more than 4 could start turning some of my first places into thirds.

[dfscott]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm finding multi-tabling SNG's much harder than limit games, where I used to do 8 very easily. In SNG's, it gets notably harder once I pass 4 for me. When out of the money, it's not a big deal, but when ITM and your decisions really count, tables seem to have more of an individual character that I can't just auto-pilot through. I can do six okay, but 8 is quite difficult. So for now, I'm sticking to 4 with the occasional indulgence in six.

Maybe as I get better in SNG's that will change. But for now, I think doing more than 4 could start turning some of my first places into thirds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too funny -- I find it to be exactly the opposite. There are the occasional exceptions (last night with two HU tables, one bubble table, and one ITM table), but that's the exception rather than the rule.

I never felt comfortable doing more than 3 or occaisionally 4 tables of limit, but I feel like I could play 5 or 6 SnGs now if I had the hardware.

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm finding multi-tabling SNG's much harder than limit games, where I used to do 8 very easily. In SNG's, it gets notably harder once I pass 4 for me. When out of the money, it's not a big deal, but when ITM and your decisions really count, tables seem to have more of an individual character that I can't just auto-pilot through. I can do six okay, but 8 is quite difficult. So for now, I'm sticking to 4 with the occasional indulgence in six.

Maybe as I get better in SNG's that will change. But for now, I think doing more than 4 could start turning some of my first places into thirds.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly, I'm finding that using Playerview while multitabling is doing a TON to help out my play. Since I can't often get accurate reads while 4-tabling, I simply keep Playerview up to show me opponent's VPIP. I do still form good ol' fashioned reads, but when I can look at a player and see that he's got a low VPIP, I can quickly determine his likely calling range. Also, I look at the player's other numbers (PFR, Aggression factor, etc.) to give me an idea of how passive they are. Low VPIP + Low PFR and Aggression factor = stealing goldmine.

This approach has worked very well so far, and my results while multitabling have been improving markedly.

[1C5]

Oops, got you confused with J-Lo again as I always do, I know he is 8 tabling the 22s all the time.

[Vetstadium]

I try not to play mornings early afternoons if possible but if I do I play 22's from dinner on it has mostly been 33's about a thousand at each ROI very close. Players are a little better at 33's you def get paid off with your sets a lot more at the 22's. I have been playing lot of 55's recenlty dinner hours and later only 200 and ROI twice is high but I am sure just a good run. Players there are better but sometimes fine that unraised pot 6 in and guy thinks his top pair with nine with ten kicker is worth going all in over.

[Blarg]

I like Gametime better, but have used playerview too. I like them both for ring games, but I will have to see how much I like them in SNG's. It seems every SNG has different players in it. I don't see the same players all the time the way I did in ring games. And VPIP when the blinds are at 15 is so much different than when they're at 300 that I wonder when those kind of stats mean anything at all in SNG's.

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
And VPIP when the blinds are at 15 is so much different than when they're at 300 that I wonder when those kind of stats mean anything at all in SNG's.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's very true, but with a lot of low-buyin players, I'm finding that it's still a decent gauge of their calling standards when you push. So many people try to survive to the money that a low overall VPIP seems to denote someone that you can steal blinds from. Of course I haven't been using this system for more than about 20 SNGs, so there's still much more testing to be done on it. YMMV.

[Voltron87]

what programs do you use for this? i might be interested in experimenting with this.

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
what programs do you use for this? i might be interested in experimenting with this.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm using Playerview along with PT.

[Voltron87]

so playerview puts it up on the screen using the data from where? from pt?

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
so playerview puts it up on the screen using the data from where? from pt?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, playerview connects with PT's database, and displays real time data on the table (customizable to whatever you want) as you play. It's great for ring games, but I've been finding good use for it in SNGs. It's a little overkill if you're 1-2 tabling IMO, but if you're doing 4+ tables, it's the nuts.

[Voltron87]

so how does pt mine? Do I have to leave party open while I'm not playing? How big do the databases get? alright enough stupid questions im just going to get it and find out myself, this is worth a try.

[1C5]

What stats do you have showing for SnGs?

[DasLeben]

[ QUOTE ]
What stats do you have showing for SnGs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically the same I keep for ring games (so I don't have to change my layout). I have VPIP, hands played, PFR, and average aggression. I'm not sure if these are the most efficient and/or useful for SNG play, so if you find any that work better, please let me know.

[SNOWBALL138]

what is your sample size at the 22s?

[TheUsher]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What stats do you have showing for SnGs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Basically the same I keep for ring games (so I don't have to change my layout). I have VPIP, hands played, PFR, and average aggression. I'm not sure if these are the most efficient and/or useful for SNG play, so if you find any that work better, please let me know.

[/ QUOTE ]

ASB, Flop-Turn %.