Did I play this draw correctly?

[cflynn]

This was like the first orbit at the table. The first few hands had four to the flop. I posted a drawing hand where I was raising incorrectly a few weeks back and want to see if I learned anything.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG posts a blind of $3. MP2 posts a blind of $3.
MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG (poster) calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Probably a questionable call, but with the poster and MP1 calling, plus the button CC... I was in a loose mood.

Flop: (12 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button folds, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Didn't three bet the first time around to get overcalls, but when UTG1 did, I capped. Is this correct?

Turn: (15.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>,

I bet out here since I capped -- I figured if I hit the frush on the river, it would help disguise my hand. Not sure about this one.

All comments appreciated.

[SeaEagle]

Was UTG all-in on the flop?

[Fat Nicky]

I would just have 3-bet the flop. Get the max value out of your draw now when people are willing to put $$$ in the pot.

The turn is interesting, since you capped the flop, checking gives your hand away to a somewhat observant opponent, but i don't think we need to worry too much about this since it looks like at least 1-2 players are probably going to showdown, so checking the turn isn't so bad, IMO.

[damaniac]

I don't know about the preflop call. You're getting about 5:1 I think, 6:1 if poster and BB come along. I might be more incined in a 1/2 structure, where we'd get 7:1 if both come along, and also if it was something like T6s since we can make a straight with both cards.

The rest looks real good, maybe 3-bet when it comes back to you on the flop, but then you don't especially want to lose customers since you aren't winning most of the time by spiking a pair. The turn bet should be not so much for deception as value. As long as no one has a set or high two pair, you've picked up another 5 outs to two pair/trips, so against this many opponents you are getting a good deal if you get a few callers. Just be wary of the action, if it gets raised and reraised, I wouldn't go too crazy on the river if I hit my two pair/trips.

[SeaEagle]

I think it matters whether UTG is all-in or not. If he's all-in, then the flop cap is a good value bet.

If he's not all-in, then I think the cap has less value. I know, I know, you only have to have 20% equity, but with UTG showing strength and MP1 and MP2 calling 2 bets cold, there's a really good chance that someone is on a higher flush draw or has a set (or both), in which case you don't even have 20% equity.

In any case, I don't like the turn bet. You're not ahead on this hand, you're not going to win unless you get ahead, and you don't have enough outs to value bet (the outs you picked up w/ the 5 have to be heavily discounted with this much action). Your flop cap was just a value bet, there's no reason to follow it up on the turn.

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
he turn bet should be not so much for deception as value.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the problem with betting the turn is that we don't know if it will be for value. I really can't feel confident that was have 14 full outs at the river because of the possibility of being up against a set, or even being against a better flush draw.

I will say we have 11 outs going into the river, giving us odds of about 3.2-1.

Now, if we bet out and 3 players call our single bet, then yes, our bet was for value. However, judging by the flop action, chances are this turn isn't going to pass without at least one raise and maybe even a 3-bet. Will 3 players put in as many bets as you on the turn?? the possibility of this goes down as more raises go into the pot. This is why I like checking better than betting out on the turn, because I really doubt our bet will be for value.

[chief444]

What do you think UTG smooth calls on the flop then 3-bets with? I just call the 3-bet.

I think I just check/call the turn as well.

At 3/6 this preflop call seems a little borderline to me.

[NickRegino]

Turn bet is ugly even if you were betting for value the possiblity of being raised goes up and all you don't really have a made hand here. I would just check the turn and fold.

[jskills]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn bet is ugly even if you were betting for value the possiblity of being raised goes up and all you don't really have a made hand here. I would just check the turn and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Check / fold the turn? Uh, nope. The pot is giving you 15-1 and you have 9 outs to a flush and another 2 5's in the deck that could also help.

I know the discussion here is whether to bet out given that we've capped the flop, but folding is really not an option. Personally, I'd have to check / call here and at least see the river.

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
I would just check the turn and fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/confused.gif

[damaniac]

Good point. UTG's move looks pretty strong. Also, though, he might raise us on the turn, which faces the field with 2 cold and probably kills any value we could get from it.

[cflynn]

Thanks for the comments. I agree the PF call was marginal -- been making a point to try and play a few marginal hands. This one is easy to dump if the flop misses. No math on whether this is + or - EV, but was pretty sure that BB and MP1 were coming along.

Looks like I should have check called the turn.

[cflynn]

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif. UTG posts a blind of $3. MP2 posts a blind of $3.
MP1 calls, MP2 (poster) checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button calls, Hero calls, UTG (poster) calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(7 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button folds, Hero calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG 3-bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (15.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO calls.

River: (18.50 BB) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Final Pot: 21.50 BB

Results
<font color="white">
Hero [ Ts, 5s ] a flush, ten high.
UTG [ 2d, Kh ] a pair of twos.
MP2 <font color="white"> </font> doesn't show [ 8c, 5h ] two pairs, eights and fives.
CO doesn't show [ Qs, Qc ] a pair of queens. <font color="white"> </font> <font color="white"> </font> <font color="white"> </font> <font color="white"> </font> <font color="white"> </font> <font color="white"> </font>

[smizmiatch]

You could make a strong argument for betting out the turn. I ran this hand through pokerstove, and it showed that your pot equity was somewhere around 40 percent vs. five opponents.
I'm not sure if that's accurate (b/c the five opponents are viewed to have random hands in pokerstove), but if you're anywhere remotely close to that, you're going to make money by betting.
Thoughts?

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure if that's accurate (b/c the five opponents are viewed to have random hands in pokerstove), but if you're anywhere remotely close to that, you're going to make money by betting.


[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see how you're anywhere remotely close to randome hands here.

[Fat Nicky]

[ QUOTE ]
You could make a strong argument for betting out the turn. I ran this hand through pokerstove, and it showed that your pot equity was somewhere around 40 percent vs. five opponents.
I'm not sure if that's accurate (b/c the five opponents are viewed to have random hands in pokerstove), but if you're anywhere remotely close to that, you're going to make money by betting.
Thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Assign random hands to your oppoenents is a terrible way of figuring out your pot equity.