AQ vs. limp, re-raise, take a look

[EasilyFound]

please critique my play and how you'd play the final round if you found yourself in my place at that time:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (7 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

UTG (t735)
MP1 (t2012)
MP2 (t1718)
Hero (t960)
Button (t730)
SB (t1015)
BB (t830)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP1 calls t30, MP2 calls t30, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t100</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to t300</font>, MP2 folds, Hero calls t200.

Flop: (t675) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t675) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, Hero checks.

River: (t675) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets t600</font>, Hero ???

[1C5]

At an $11? Hero calls and his AQ beats AJ.

[Phil Van Sexton]

I'd fold preflop after he raises. I don't care what the pot odds are. AQ really doesn't look so good anymore.

You flopped an Ace and still couldn't play, so there's really no point in just calling his raise.

I guess I'd fold on the river. I really have no clue (which is why you should've folded).

[go fish]

Actually, at an $11, hero calls and his AQ loses to A3...

I'm really not that good at this game, but I don't like all this checking. After the flop I guess it's okay to check behind his check, he could have been trying for a check-raise, which would put you in an awkward position, where you probably have the better hand, but you'd be inclined to lay it down. But after the turn, when he checks again - I would have to bet there. Most of these people don't have the patience to check twice with a good hand and all that money sitting out there in the middle. Also there's 2 clubs out now. I'd have to put in a bet there, maybe just 200-300. I could be completely wrong, I often am.

So what did he have? 33? 99?

[zambonidrivr]

you really needed to bet the flop. FIND OUT WHERE YOU STAND

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
At an $11? Hero calls and his AQ beats AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds reasonable. If this is the read, he should've pushed on the flop.

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
At an $11? Hero calls and his AQ beats AJ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. This was an $11 tourney. And your read is pretty close. I called and beat his KJ. Horrible play all around, including me, but the best hand somehow one. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sweet72]

Why didn't you bet after the flop? Let him keep drawing until he beats you. I wouldn't have been surprised if he turned over A3. Too many people play anything with an ace, great hand to bust them. You got lucky.

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you bet after the flop? Let him keep drawing until he beats you. I wouldn't have been surprised if he turned over A3. Too many people play anything with an ace, great hand to bust them. You got lucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct. If I call that preflop reraise, as I did, then I've got to bet the flop, as you say, to find out where I am at. Fundamental poker. I have to relearn my fundamentals every once in a while.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why didn't you bet after the flop? Let him keep drawing until he beats you. I wouldn't have been surprised if he turned over A3. Too many people play anything with an ace, great hand to bust them. You got lucky.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are correct. If I call that preflop reraise, as I did, then I've got to bet the flop, as you say, to find out where I am at. Fundamental poker. I have to relearn my fundamentals every once in a while.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is that you only have 660 left and pot is 675. Maybe you could bet 200 and fold to a push, but that seems terrible.

You put so much money in preflop that you no longer have the luxury of betting for information.

If I called preflop, I definately push on the flop. I'll find out where am I at if and when he flips his cards over.

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
You put so much money in preflop that you no longer have the luxury of betting for information.


[/ QUOTE ]

I forgot about chip stack size when making the last reply. Now I understand why you say fold. If you're going to commit nearly one third of your stack preflop, then you are in a spot where you really should push or fold. In your view, AQ is not the kind of hand where you want to push a reraise. It was such an odd reraise though. At least that is how it seemed to me at the time. He limped, and then made a relatively small reraise. Not how I would have expected someone to bet if they had a monster. And then his check on the flop with that board. It was just very strange. At least to me. That probably explains my actions on the flop and the turn. THen his final bet of 600 was also odd. Very strange.

[sweet72]

Phil you make a good point about low chip count and not being able to really push for information. Would you have called after the bet was $600?

I relooked at the start and AQ is not a bad hand. Why such a small raise to start? Control was lost when the reraise was just called. I think if the raise had been bigger to start (Like 300), the original reraiser would have folded. You would have won less, but you wouldn't have been put in the ackward sitaution you were in. Worst case scenerio, he goes all in and you either lose the 300 and fold or call with a very good hand anyway. Which you would have won.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
Phil you make a good point about low chip count and not being able to really push for information. Would you have called after the bet was $600?

I relooked at the start and AQ is not a bad hand. Why such a small raise to start? Control was lost when the reraise was just called. I think if the raise had been bigger to start (Like 300), the original reraiser would have folded. You would have won less, but you wouldn't have been put in the ackward sitaution you were in. Worst case scenerio, he goes all in and you either lose the 300 and fold or call with a very good hand anyway. Which you would have won.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raising to 100 was fine. He wasn't expecting to get re-raised. In general, if you are re-raised with AQ, you are going to fold. Therefore, you don't want to raise so much that you can't get away.

If you think the re-raiser was a maniac, you should just push rather than call preflop. Or you can fold and live to fight another day. It depends. Calling is clearly the least attractive option.

[sweet72]

I don't think there would have been a call if 300 was bet. A 100 raise is a little small. I think the other guy looked at it as weakness and was hoping to steal the pot there. Maybe 10 times the BB was a little high. If AQ had just limped in, he would have lost all control and even a small bet by KJ would have put a lot more doubt on how good the AQ really was.

[Phil Van Sexton]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think there would have been a call if 300 was bet. A 100 raise is a little small. I think the other guy looked at it as weakness and was hoping to steal the pot there. Maybe 10 times the BB was a little high

[/ QUOTE ]

It is likely that no one calls if you bet 300, but that's not really the point. If you want to bet 300 and make everyone fold, go ahead and do that with 72o or any hand. You don't need AQ to do that.

I think 100 is fine (maybe 120 is better with a couple limpers). You don't want to make the pot so big that you can't play post-flop.

I'd probably only raise here with AA-JJ and AK/AQ and maybe a couple others. With AA-QQ/AK, I'm likely going allin if someone raises me. If someone wants to try this crap with KJ, they are often going to run into a monster.

In this case, he got very lucky with his KJ and would've taken 100 from me. Oh, well. He won that time, but it's really a terrible play by him against the range of hands that I'd be raising with here.

[11t]

I fold preflop, but all things being equal I bet the flop and fold to a push back. You won't see good players do the complete raise with much less than KK.

[Phoenix1010]

I don't like playing AQo on level 2, even with position, especially with players (in this case, two very large stacks) already in the pot. My standard raise is three times the big blind plus one big blind for each limper (some like 2x the big blind for each limper), so in this case, you would need to raise to at least 150 to really be discouraging a call. Against stacks this large your raise to 100 probably looks like little more than a minraise, They're still going to play (and probably correctly) with whatever hand they limped with.

You probably have the best hand preflop so you have a small pot equity edge, but if you get called in more than one place your actual chances of winning the pot aren't very impressive. Remember that any king high other KQ isn't very far behind you. Most king or jack high flops are going to wreck your hand, not to mention the times that someone flops the set that you gave them odds to make. You really just want to take this one down preflop. Still playing AQo at this level is debatable, and depends mostly on how you view your abilities postflop. You can certainly show a profit, but against loose opponents, the value of position, and of unpaired offsuit high cards, goes down. I say you should conserve your chips instead.

After the reraise, a fold was clearly in order. His range of hands has now shifted heavily to the strong side of the spectrum, and your pot odds are not even 2:1. I don't think you can expect to have much fold equity with pushing preflop, and calling would mean throwing a fourth of your stack into a pot where you will miss the flop completely 2/3 of the time, and really not be comfortable with your hand the other third (as evidenced by all the checking). You don't have enough chips to play that loosely preflop.

I check the flop as well, since at least half of the hands that I could have put him on preflop are now beating me. After the turn I'd be tempted to take it down with a push, since there are some free cards I'm afraid of, but checking again is the best play. Pushing will get you called only when you're beat, checking induces a bluff on the river. If you check the turn you have to call the river. Given the way he played it, you'll have the best hand much more than the 1 in 3 times necessary to make it a profitable call.

I don't like the preflop play, but I agree with the play on all other streets.

-Phoenix

[EasilyFound]

[ QUOTE ]
If you check the turn you have to call the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly what I planned to do. thanks to everyone for the comments. they were very informative.