Fun w/ J2s

[The Dude]

Party Poker 5-10. MP in this hand is unknown, this is his first orbit and I don't have any prior hands with him. Other reads are irrelevent.

Preflop:
3 Limpers to The Dude in the SB who completes w/ J/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, BB checks.

Flop: (5.5 SBs) A/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 Players)</font>
The Dude bets, BB calls, EP calls, MP calls, LP folds.

Turn: (4.75 BBs) 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 Players)</font>
The Dude checks, BB bets, EP calls, MP raises. The Dude folds.

Comments?

[bakku]

I'm betting the turn but the way this hand went down I have no problems with your fold.

[mr pink]

whats the deal with the turn check?

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
whats the deal with the turn check?

[/ QUOTE ]
Guys, this is a pretty easy turn check, IMO.

[Matt Jenko]

why bet out on the flop? i would have gone for a c/r and then bet out on the turn and see what happens. the way things panned out, i might well fold here as well, although i would not be happy doing it based on my lack of understanding why i bet the flop /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Catch of the Day]

Uh, why not c/r the flop, and I just don't see your turn check...or really your fold for that matter?

Catch-

[mr pink]

care to elaborate on the ease of the turn check?

[CallMeIshmael]

Bump...

in the hopes that someone can explain why this turn is a check.

(is it a check/raise? I can see that)

[Zele]

I also demand an explanation of the turn check.

[hicherbie]

[ QUOTE ]
I also demand an explanation of the turn check.

[/ QUOTE ]

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
in the hopes that someone can explain why this turn is a check.


[/ QUOTE ]
Wish I could help. But unless it's with the intention of check/raising on a board that is very unlikely to be checked through I don't get it either.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
Wish I could help. But unless it's with the intention of check/raising on a board that is very unlikely to be checked through I don't get it either.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can definitely see a check/raise here.

As when you are called on that board, its very likely that someone has a made hand, and will bet when checked to.

I mean, ya, there are a lot of draws, but you have to figure someone paired an A/J.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
care to elaborate on the ease of the turn check?

[/ QUOTE ]
With the number of people who called the flop, this turn is going to get checked through just about never. So why not put in a check-raise?

But then MP foils my plan by raising. So how often is my hand the best after that raise? Sure, sometimes I'll be folding the best hand, but not that often. And teh times I am ahead, I'll get drawn out on a LOT more than I'll draw on them. (I estimate The Dude has about 2 outs here when he's behind.)

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
With the number of people who called the flop, this turn is going to get checked through just about never. So why not put in a check-raise?

But then MP foils my plan by raising. So how often is my hand the best after that raise? Sure, sometimes I'll be folding the best hand, but not that often. And teh times I am ahead, I'll get drawn out on a LOT more than I'll draw on them. (I estimate The Dude has about 2 outs here when he's behind.)

[/ QUOTE ]
Sounds good to me. I really have no problem with the turn fold. The only real issue I have with the turn check is it makes it more likely you'll be bet and raised by a worse hand. But I'd go for a check/raise on this board with 2-pair or better at times as well.

[NickRegino]

hehe i woulda c/r the turn or the flop

[jskills]

[ QUOTE ]
why bet out on the flop? i would have gone for a c/r and then bet out on the turn and see what happens. the way things panned out, i might well fold here as well, although i would not be happy doing it based on my lack of understanding why i bet the flop /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Why bet the flop? Because you have 2 pair and the board is 2 flushed. You can't "go for the check raise" if you check and everyone checks behind you. What makes you think someone is guaranteed to bet the flop for you anyway - no one raised preflop ...

[jskills]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
care to elaborate on the ease of the turn check?

[/ QUOTE ]
With the number of people who called the flop, this turn is going to get checked through just about never. So why not put in a check-raise?

But then MP foils my plan by raising. So how often is my hand the best after that raise? Sure, sometimes I'll be folding the best hand, but not that often. And teh times I am ahead, I'll get drawn out on a LOT more than I'll draw on them. (I estimate The Dude has about 2 outs here when he's behind.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Although a turn C/R would be sweet to pull off, what about your opponents' play leads you to believe you will even be bet at on the turn? No one has showed any aggression whatsoever - just limping and calling up to this point. Checking the turn and having it checked behind you would suck, particularly given the 2 possible 4 flushes on the board. I don't see how this is a +EV play - but of course I could be wrong.

Also, about folding. I know you are up against a large field. But let's think of the range of hands you could be up against given that everyone limped preflop. The BB could be holding any J or 8. You have 2 pair, so sure a flopped set is possible, but given the possible 4flush on the board, would this person need to bet the flop? So couldn't we be looking at someone playing KJ or QJs vs. someone playing Axs or something like that? I'm just having a hard time seeing how your 2 pair are so certainly beaten ...

Again, I could be wrong, but I'm probably have to call down ...

[mr pink]

what i don't get is that say you go for the check/raise, (which may or may not be the right play here), i'm not sure about it just yet.

you don't know where the bet is coming from. if it comes from mp in dude's hand, why would you want to check/raise then and shut out the other 2 players in between? i could see raising a bet from the bb, but you also run the risk of a worse hand raising the turn and forcing you into folding the best hand.

why not just bet it for value and hope it stands up in this smallish pot?

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Although a turn C/R would be sweet to pull off, what about your opponents' play leads you to believe you will even be bet at on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
When 3 people call my flop bet, it's pretty unlikely the turn is going to get checked through - somebody's got an A or a J they're happy with. It's pretty common for people at this stake to take the "I'll call if someone bets, but bet if it's checked to me" approach with weakish Aces they cant' raise preflop.

As for the check forcing me to fold to worse hands, I dont' think so. People with 1-pair Aces had a chance to raise on the flop, that will usually mean they flopped a monster (2 pair, set) or improved (A8, J8). Of course sometimes I'll be folding to a play by T9s, but that wasn't induced by my check, and they wont' have that hand often enough for me to call down.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
As for the check forcing me to fold to worse hands, I dont' think so. People with 1-pair Aces had a chance to raise on the flop, that will usually mean they flopped a monster (2 pair, set) or improved (A8, J8). Of course sometimes I'll be folding to a play by T9s, but that wasn't induced by my check, and they wont' have that hand often enough for me to call down.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're probably right for the average opponent. But I know if I were MP with a weakish ace here I'm probably calling the flop and very well may raise the turn. So while I agree it won't happen often I think it is a consideration. At the same time as I said I don't have any problem with the way you played it.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]

you don't know where the bet is coming from. if it comes from mp in dude's hand, why would you want to check/raise then and shut out the other 2 players in between?

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont' care if I drive out people or not. I've got a shitty 2-pair that could do fine to be protected. But since betting out doesn't protect my hand either, there's no disadvantage in check-raising the BB's bet. So as long as it gets bet from somewhere, I'm happy.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
You're probably right for the average opponent. But I know if I were MP with a weakish ace here I'm probably calling the flop and very well may raise the turn. So while I agree it won't happen often I think it is a consideration.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, there's no doubt that I will occaisionally fold the best hand here, but I don't think it's anywhere close to often enoug to make calling down correct.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
Yeah, there's no doubt that I will occaisionally fold the best hand here, but I don't think it's anywhere close to often enoug to make calling down correct.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah Dude, I agree. It's just the only argument against the line that I could really come up with. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[MaxPower]

Very though provoking post Dude. Thank you.

I agree that you will occasionaly fold the best hand, but that is part of playing winning poker. You won't win often enough to justify calling down.

I definitely lose too much on hands like these.

[tipperdog]

Turn fold is prudent.

I'm surprised no one has questioned the pre-flop action. This is a 2/5 blind structure, yes? So you're getting ~7:1 on this call, with the slight prospect of a raise behind you. Is 7:1 enough to call from the worst position on the table with suited trash? I'd have mucked.

Do you call with any two suited cards here?

[Trix]

Probably fine, just sucks when he flatcalled Ax on the flop to see the action on the turn, but the pot is small enough to let go.

I think you would prefer to check-raise the flop as any A/J is drawing pretty live against your bottom two.

I´m fine with the turn check-raise, but also fine with a bet. I think I mix it actually.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised no one has questioned the pre-flop action. This is a 2/5 blind structure, yes? So you're getting ~7:1 on this call, with the slight prospect of a raise behind you. Is 7:1 enough to call from the worst position on the table with suited trash? I'd have mucked.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I figured I would get some questions about that, too. I'm not playing quite any two, but damn near it. (I'd fold 32s.) I play pretty loose from the SB since implied odds are magnified, but that becomes less true in a 1/3 structure, and it's less true the weaker your postflop play is. Being able to get that extra check-raise in and being able to get away from spots like this make hands like this profitable when getting very marginal odds preflop.

BTW, for the results oriented people around here, BB called down w/ A5o, EP called down w/ JT, and MP had 22 for the flopped set. However, even if MP had shows AK and MHWG, I would still advocate folding.

[sthief09]

if I was MP, I'd play ATo the same way

it's probably a good fold, but you're going to ahve theb est hand on occasion. the callers also make it highly likely you'll be rivered even if you do have the best hand

[The Dude]

tipperdog,

Just FYI, I think Clarkmeister is the only 2+2'er I've met who plays as loosely from the SB as I do - or at least he's the only one I've talked to enough to know it. I could list a dozen 2+2'ers I've played with that I know fold hands I'm completing with. This is true mostly in the blind structures larger than 1/3.

In a 1/2 structure I will always complete 97o, 86o with as little as 1 limper if he's weak, and damn near anything w/ 4 limpers (Q4o I'm completing). And I'm more prone to complete live than online, because I eek out more profit postflop live, which is significant when dealing with implied odds.

Like I said before though, learning players need to be careful, because implied odds can become reverse-implied odds pretty easily.

[jskills]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Although a turn C/R would be sweet to pull off, what about your opponents' play leads you to believe you will even be bet at on the turn?

[/ QUOTE ]
When 3 people call my flop bet, it's pretty unlikely the turn is going to get checked through - somebody's got an A or a J they're happy with. It's pretty common for people at this stake to take the "I'll call if someone bets, but bet if it's checked to me" approach with weakish Aces they cant' raise preflop.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well given the way things went on the turn, I guess you were right. I just find that when you complete from the SB with a hands like this, the flop you got is about as good as it gets, no? My problem here is that I have a difficult time putting anyone on nay kind of hand, when everyone LIMPED preflop, e.g. maybe someone limped with AJ?

[ QUOTE ]

As for the check forcing me to fold to worse hands, I dont' think so. People with 1-pair Aces had a chance to raise on the flop, that will usually mean they flopped a monster (2 pair, set) or improved (A8, J8). Of course sometimes I'll be folding to a play by T9s, but that wasn't induced by my check, and they wont' have that hand often enough for me to call down.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you put it this way, it's pretty hard to argue I guess. Calling down would probably be a leak for me here I guess ...

[27offsooot]

[ QUOTE ]

But then MP foils my plan by raising. So how often is my hand the best after that raise? Sure, sometimes I'll be folding the best hand, but not that often. And teh times I am ahead, I'll get drawn out on a LOT more than I'll draw on them. (I estimate The Dude has about 2 outs here when he's behind.)

[/ QUOTE ]

The only issue I have is that your hand looks a lot like a heart draw to this point. I would think that MP raises any decent ace here. Grant it, of the ones that a reasonable player might limp PF, u only beat A9/A10. But I don't see how u can be so sure that you're beat at this point. I suppose I'm just not that good yet. Although I would always be betting that turn and definitely see why a c/r is the better move now.

[Entity]

Hey dude,

As you played it, it's an insta fold to a 3-bet if it goes check, check, bet, you raise, call, fold, 3-bet?

Rob

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
As you played it, it's an insta fold to a 3-bet if it goes check, check, bet, you raise, call, fold, 3-bet?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I'm folding to a 3-bet. In fact, if I lead this turn and get raised, I hate my hand. I don't think I can fold at that juncture, since my effective odds are much better than if I had to call 2 cold, but it pretty much sucks anyway.

[CallMeIshmael]

Dude,

you had said that you werent worried about checkraising a LP bet, because your hand is pretty vulnerable. But...

What is your line here if you have 22?

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
What is your line here if you have 22?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would be much more inclined to bet out, since I don't want to drive others out. Also because it'd be nice to get raise, so I can put in a 3-bet, whereas w/ J2 I don't want to 3bet.

[CallMeIshmael]

[ QUOTE ]
I would be much more inclined to bet out, since I don't want to drive others out. Also because it'd be nice to get raise, so I can put in a 3-bet, whereas w/ J2 I don't want to 3bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thats the answer I was hoping you'd give, as it was the one that made the most sense to me. Thanks. Nice thread, btw.

[rmarotti]

Nice post, Dude. I hated the turn at first but I like the reasons given for the fold. FWIW I think I'm just about as loose as you from the SB. The few times I've played live with 2p2ers I've gotten some pretty funny looks when my SB hands make it to showdown.

[RiverTheNuts]

Good fold, that turn raise screams set

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised no one has questioned the pre-flop action. This is a 2/5 blind structure, yes? So you're getting ~7:1 on this call, with the slight prospect of a raise behind you. Is 7:1 enough to call from the worst position on the table with suited trash? I'd have mucked.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I figured I would get some questions about that, too. I'm not playing quite any two, but damn near it. (I'd fold 32s.) I play pretty loose from the SB since implied odds are magnified, but that becomes less true in a 1/3 structure, and it's less true the weaker your postflop play is. Being able to get that extra check-raise in and being able to get away from spots like this make hands like this profitable when getting very marginal odds preflop.

BTW, for the results oriented people around here, BB called down w/ A5o, EP called down w/ JT, and MP had 22 for the flopped set. However, even if MP had shows AK and MHWG, I would still advocate folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Nate tha' Great]

You're making this too complicated. Just bet the turn and call down one raise. Nice and easy.

[The Dude]

Why is less "complicated" and "nice and easy" the better play?

[ckessel]

Ok, I'm baffled. Folding 2-pair with no straight and no flush on the board? You can't be worried about pocket JJ hitting trips, there was no preflop raise. Similarly with AJ, seems like someone would have raised. Not sure I'd fear 88, certainly possible, but the range of hands is much broader.

To my uneducated eye, your turn check prompted the BB to feel his non-ace pair was good and bet, the MP2 raised feeling positive his Ace with a weak suited kicker was the best. The EP player just seems clueless, not sure what he's got, no aggression and no draw on the board.

Checking the turn seems to show weakness and I'm not surprised a couple people jumped on it. Just seems way too likely a weak ace got confidence from that check and raised, but your 2-pair is still the best hand.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Why is less "complicated" and "nice and easy" the better play?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I don't know where the bet is going to come from if I'm intending to check-raise, I don't know how I feel if I check-raise and get 3-bet, I hate myself the 10 percent of the time that it actually does get checked around, and I sure as hell don't want to deal with the X-factor of it coming back for two bets for me, as it has here. The check takes me from a very comfortable place to one that could easily become highly confusing.

[sthief09]

and also, even though he made a good fold when it's 2 bets, he has the best hand some of the time, and by betting, he removes that some of the time when he folds the best hand. it's similar to folding outs. small factor though.

that said, it seems close to me, which I guess is my way of saying "I don't know."

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
and also, even though he made a good fold when it's 2 bets, he has the best hand some of the time, and by betting, he removes that some of the time when he folds the best hand. it's similar to folding outs. small factor though.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're thinking about this incorrectly. If I knew that if I bet BB would call and MP would raise, how is that better than BB betting and MP raising? Sure, I've already got one bet in, which makes my effective odds good enough I probably have to call down, but that doesn't help me at all.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Because I don't know where the bet is going to come from if I'm intending to check-raise

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't care where the bet comes from, I'd rather check raise than bet. I don't mind driving people out and I don't mind dragging them along for 2. Either one is more profitable for me than letting them see the river for one bet.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how I feel if I check-raise and get 3-bet

[/ QUOTE ]
You don't? It's pretty clear you're screwed, and that you've got [censored] for outs. I'm folding and I'm feeling good about it.

[ QUOTE ]
I hate myself the 10 percent of the time that it actually does get checked around

[/ QUOTE ]
It's a bummer for sure, but if I get a checkraise in 90% of the time and it gets checked around the other 10%, it seems pretty clear to me that I come out ahead on that deal.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
and also, even though he made a good fold when it's 2 bets, he has the best hand some of the time, and by betting, he removes that some of the time when he folds the best hand. it's similar to folding outs. small factor though.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're thinking about this incorrectly. If I knew that if I bet BB would call and MP would raise, how is that better than BB betting and MP raising? Sure, I've already got one bet in, which makes my effective odds good enough I probably have to call down, but that doesn't help me at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because MP will (correctly) raise lighter those times that you don't start things off with a bet?

[The Dude]

Eh, he might correct to raise slightly lighter, but that doesn't mean he is. I really don't think this is prevalent enough to sway the matter, but I suppose you can decide on your own how likely he is to be raising with a hand that loses to J2. I just think it's going to be pretty rare.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
Eh, he might correct to raise slightly lighter, but that doesn't mean he is. I really don't think this is prevalent enough to sway the matter, but I suppose you can decide on your own how likely he is to be raising with a hand that loses to J2. I just think it's going to be pretty rare.

[/ QUOTE ]

As Josh said, why *wouldn't* he raise with a decent ace here? It looks like you probably have a flush draw or something like middle pair, and he'd certainly want to raise against either of those hands, especially if he's capable of folding to your check-3bet. I think your check changes the dynamics of the hand dramatically, not just marginally.

[Chris Dow]

I've read the hand, and I've read the last page of posts. Nate is spot on here (especially about how your bet changes the way the hand plays out), the fact you didn't lead the turn really stands out as terrible to me. The whole idea of bet the flop and then they'll let you cr the turn on them is a bit of a juvenille line and it got played here (played right out of a pot).

In conclusion, God must have killed a kitten over this one...