Smallest bankroll for NL25

[Obliky]

At the moment i have about $100 in party..which is clearly not going to be enough to play 6max NL25.

I know that some posters recommend having about 20 times the max buy-in which would be $500...now im all for this...but i dont have that kind of money at the moment!

My question is for the NL25 regulars:

Whats the smallest bankroll you would play on NL25 with?
Do you think that 10x max buy-in would be enough, or has it got to be ~20 due to the high varience?

Thanks

Obliky

[JaBlue]

if you are a decent player 4 buy ins will be fine.

[boondockst]

I started with $75 this time around and got doubled up via AA my 3rd hand in...This probably sounds ludicrous but if you're starting that low, try to play at a TIME that may be friendlier. I find that later at night (PST) the play is far more passive and while more money might be to be had on the weekend afternoons, it is probably more swingy than the calmer periods. Good luck with your growth.

[Blackwolf]

Play tight and passive, try to hit sets and high flushes it works for me all the time. Good luck!

[The_Bends]

The 20x buy in thing is designed to completely rule out the possibility of a winning player going broke, vital when you have 10K on the line but not when its only $50. Three or Four buy ins is fine. If you're a good player you'd be unlucky to lose that many at that standard of play.

[MarkL444]

try banking some wins to start off. if you double up, get up. that way youll never lose more than 25 bucks or so.

[beset7]

[ QUOTE ]
At the moment i have about $100 in party..which is clearly not going to be enough to play 6max NL25.

I know that some posters recommend having about 20 times the max buy-in which would be $500...now im all for this...but i dont have that kind of money at the moment!

My question is for the NL25 regulars:

Whats the smallest bankroll you would play on NL25 with?
Do you think that 10x max buy-in would be enough, or has it got to be ~20 due to the high varience?

Thanks

Obliky

[/ QUOTE ]

You can do it. Just play ueber-tight. Those games are so hideously soft that they won't notice you are peddling the nuts. Loosen up once you have 10 buyins or so and start makin some moves.

And remember, "bankroll" is an abstract concept if you aren't a pro or fantasizing that you are pro. Play at the limit you are comfortable with and would be comfortable losing your buy-in at. You go bust? Recycle a bunch of aluminum cans and reload no big deal. People take the BR shizzle way to seriously when they have dayjobs.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
if you are a decent player 4 buy ins will be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[The_Bends]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you are a decent player 4 buy ins will be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

[/ QUOTE ]

4 buy ins is easily fine as long as you accept the risk of going bust.

[Zag]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
if you are a decent player 4 buy ins will be fine.

[/ QUOTE ]
No.

[/ QUOTE ]
4 buy ins is easily fine as long as you accept the risk of going bust.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, one buy in is fine if you accept the risk of going bust. And theoretically, there is no amount that is guaranteed to be enough, even for a perfect player. But generally that question means "how much do I need such that I am less than 4% likely to bust out?" (4% corresponding to one standard deviation.) However, you also need to take your own psychology into account.

I know that I have, in one very unlucky evening, lost four buy-ins in a row, in which, for every single one of them, I was a 2-to-1 (or better) favorite when the money went in. (Not to be accused of whining or anything, but in the fourth one, the coup de grace, I had 88 vs. KJ on a J83 rainbow flop and got all in. Yes, I was a 60-to-1 favorite and lost on the final board of J83KJ. At that point, I was convinced that I had really ticked off the poker gods.)

At the time I had only 8 buy-ins (because I had just cashed out a bunch in order to rescue our personal bank account), and the loss of 4 really hurt. Although I quit for that day, when I came back I wasn't playing well and I eventually lost the remaining 4 over the next couple of weeks. I am reasonably convinced that I played poorly because I was under-bankrolled, and became too cautious, followed by brief periods of over-compensation. (... thinking something like, "hell, I've been playing so tight, they can't possibly call me here," only to be called down by middle pair.)

My point is that you should have enough bankroll that the loss of 3 or 4 buy-ins is not going to affect your play negatively. Perhaps, for JaBlue, 4 is enough, but I know that I need at least 10, and preferably 20. Oh yeah, and you have to be a winning player in the first place, or no amount is enough. (I have very accurate records of my buy-ins and cash-outs, and I am ahead several thousand dollars -- I just keep stealing from my bankroll to live.)

[-Skeme-]

That's why I said "No." as you are very likely to bust with 4 buyins. That's like saying $5 is enough as long as you accept busting. The object is not to bust I'd imagine.

20 Buyins is what to aim for. You want to be able to play comfortably, and not play with the fear of losing your entire BR. Is there any chance you can move down limits and grind up to $400-$500 or so? Or find a quick job?

[ghostface]

Just do like I did. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Empire gave me $10 dollars on the first of the month. Playing 25NL FULL I now have 1k again after taking a break in March and withdrawing all me money.

With 4 buyins I would play 1 table till you have about 6-8 buyins, then go to two and three tables when you feel comfortable.

Basically just play AA-22, AK, and some AQ in good position.
Unless you hit a set or have an overpair, fold with the AA-22. With AK bet pot with any top pair that you hit or try to steal a good percentage when you have position.

When you get above 10 buyins you can add stuff like suited broadways in LP with some limpers in front.

Another important thing is not to call many all-ins with one pair. Its a different thing to push you AA when the flop is not menacing compared to betting the pot and having to call someones over the top all in. Try to avoid that.

To keep your variance as low as possible in the beginning just aim for sets to win big pots and use AK and AQ to win 3 or 4 bucks at a time to slowly increase your BR.

[THATWACOKID]

Building your BR through $5 sngs is not a bad idea either.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
At the moment i have about $100 in party..which is clearly not going to be enough to play 6max NL25.

I know that some posters recommend having about 20 times the max buy-in which would be $500...now im all for this...but i dont have that kind of money at the moment!

My question is for the NL25 regulars:

Whats the smallest bankroll you would play on NL25 with?
Do you think that 10x max buy-in would be enough, or has it got to be ~20 due to the high varience?

Thanks

Obliky

[/ QUOTE ]

My party roll was built by putting in $100, playing limit holdem until I was at $200, then pulling out the $100 and playing the winnings. I'm not sure what I'm at exactly right now but it's more than $100. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

That being said, a few swings almost knocked me out of the game, and I wouldn't recommend this approach.

You might want to try another site's NLHE $10 or something like that until you get to be able to deposit a larger roll ($200-300). In an hour at one table I lost $77.

I would personally play with as little as 4 buy ins, like you are, but I wouldn't like it. I'd want at least $200 to $250 in there, and I'm much more comfortable with $2-3k. Not even kidding. I like to be so crazy-over-rolled that I don't even think about what's at stake other than its impact on my hourly rate.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
try banking some wins to start off. if you double up, get up. that way youll never lose more than 25 bucks or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great advice!

Same with the "friendlier times of day" advice.

[JaBlue]

Skeme, I have had bigger than 4 buy in swings in the game I play and I recognize that 4 buy ins is nowhere near enough for me at that level. However, I am pretty sure 100$ is enough at that level for me.

[JaBlue]

you might want to consider buying short. If you want to play the 25NL game maybe you should buy in for 12.50. With a 50BB decisions are much easier and I'm sure you will do incredibly well playing very ABC and tight aggressive.

[swedeD]

I played tight passive before, but now I play more aggressiv and gets a LOT of more action when I have premium cards like KK and AA. I didn't have PT when I was playing passive, so I don't have any numbers to compare with. What's your PTBB/100 hands at NL25? I'm just wonderingen if it matters at NL25 if you play passive or aggressiv with so many calling stations...

[swedeD]

hmmm, maybe this can work at NL25, but I don't know. I love to play against short-stacked opponents at NL25. They are often easy to read and if they act weak, easy to push away from the pot. I think you mentally can trap yourself playing short-stacked, wonderingen if someone just play that aggressiv because your are short-stacked or because they have a good hand and want you to believe that they are just trying to scare you out of the pot.

edit: but it can be done of course. I see a guy almost every day that buy in for $5 and in my stats he have a decent PTBB/100 hands.

[JaBlue]

[ QUOTE ]
hmmm, maybe this can work at NL25, but I don't know. I love to play against short-stacked opponents at NL25. They are often easy to read and if they act weak, easy to push away from the pot. I think you mentally can trap yourself playing short-stacked, wonderingen if someone just play that aggressiv because your are short-stacked or because they have a good hand and want you to believe that they are just trying to scare you out of the pot.

edit: but it can be done of course. I see a guy almost every day that buy in for $5 and in my stats he have a decent PTBB/100 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some of the better, more respected high stakes players on this forum (Matt Flynn, El Diablo) buy in short for a variety of reasons (bank roll not being one of them) in these capped buy in 100BB games. The only disadvantage is notb eing able to take all of their money when they make a mistake. However since that requires winning some 2:1 shots etc. you might want to curb your variance with a smaller roll buy buying short. Just know how to play a smaller stack, that's all.

PS you're crushing the short buys at 25$NL because they're complete idiots, not because of some inherent weakness in buying short

[Obliky]

Thanks for all the useful info..i think that i am personally the type of player who is going to need a resonably large bankroll to stop me feeling the bad beats so i may invest another couple $100 to give me that assurance.

However, i played my first proper session today and found the opposition to be...well lets face it...pitiful. After playing for so long on Stars at low limits you get used to people playing badly, but their nothing compared to the guys on Party /images/graemlins/smile.gif

I decided to go onto a table with short stacks to test the water and managed to pretty much double up within about 30mins by winning lots of small pots. I think my biggest uncontested win was when i had TT..raised to 1.5 in SB..everyone called (6 max)..flop came 9 high rainbow, i bet the pot, they all fold!

I really dont see me having too much trouble with these guys as i have quite a lot of 6 max experience from UB tourneys..i may give it a few more sessions and see what happens as i guess the table i was playing at could have just been really wussy...

Obliky

[sourbeaver]

100 is very small, but assuming you can beat the game, chances are you won't need more than that.

Variance yes .. but I mean, this is Party NL25. The mistakes your opponents will make are so disadvantageous to them that there's approx a 2% chance you'll go broke on your first hundred.

[Obliky]

[ QUOTE ]
there's approx a 2% chance you'll go broke on your first hundred

[/ QUOTE ]

Can i ask how you worked that out? Would be interesting to know.

[sourbeaver]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there's approx a 2% chance you'll go broke on your first hundred

[/ QUOTE ]

Can i ask how you worked that out? Would be interesting to know.

[/ QUOTE ]

I knew that was coming /images/graemlins/wink.gif
There is absolutely no logical or coherent thinking into that number. My astrologist was rooting for 5% though, if that's any help.

[-Skeme-]

[ QUOTE ]
Skeme, I have had bigger than 4 buy in swings in the game I play and I recognize that 4 buy ins is nowhere near enough for me at that level. However, I am pretty sure 100$ is enough at that level for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I would go out in a limb and say that Hero isn't as good as you. Not saying he's incapable of beating $25 NL, but he seems fairly new.

And as far as beating the game goes, all I can say is do not underestimate the power of variance. If you only have $100 then go ahead and give it a shot, but if you can somehow get more, I reccommend it.

[swolfe]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
there's approx a 2% chance you'll go broke on your first hundred

[/ QUOTE ]

Can i ask how you worked that out? Would be interesting to know.

[/ QUOTE ]

if you know your winrate and standard deviation, you can calculate risk of ruin using this equation:

r = exp(-2uB/sigma^2)

where u is your hourly rate
sigma is your hourly standard deviation
B is your bankroll
r is your risk of ruin

clicky (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=207170&page=&view=&sb =5&o=&vc=1)

[just2ska]

[ QUOTE ]
try banking some wins to start off. if you double up, get up. that way youll never lose more than 25 bucks or so.

[/ QUOTE ]

i can vouch for this one...

i had 25 dollars on pokerstars 5 days ago... everytime i double i up i get up... worked my way to bigger blinds already and my bankroll is 350.

Good advice!!!

[punter11235]

Hi,

I think I can help you because I went by similair path. I started playing NL25$ having about 75$. I usually bought for about 12.5$ and cash out when it went up to 24. In this way I had not 3 but 6 buyins which is much more. I heard opinions that playign with short stack is disadvantegous and you should always have as much money as possible but this is simple untrue. You just need to adjust your strategy a bit (shorter stack means lesser implied odds). This is actually to your advantage because your opponents at this level wont notice the size of your stack and they will play for their sets/straights with incorrect odds.
After building to about 120$ I increased my buy in to 15$ , later to 20$ and so on. I took first shots at 50$NL having about 600$ bankroll and tried similair strategy 30$ buy in and cashout when it went up to 50$. I think this strategy have one more advantage: as you still play somewhat high stakes relating to your bankroll it is very motivating and you dont throw your money for lose calls and stupid bluffs which is often the case when stakes are low.

Hope this will help.

[Niwa]

nice post /images/graemlins/smile.gif
I did the same thing myself. Worked wonders.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]

PS you're crushing the short buys at 25$NL because they're complete idiots, not because of some inherent weakness in buying short

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. I tried buying in very short while developing my Basic Strategy for short-stacked NL, aimed at letting blackjack players clear poker bonuses. I won very consistently, though not as much as I win with the table covered.

When I have a deep stack, I hate having a short stack with 10-20 BB acting after me. I can't raise very aggressively, or the short stack can push to isolate with anything that is a bit better than the range I am raising. A deeper stack would need a much stronger hand to reraise.

[TrailofTears]

I was thinking it was like the 2% chance that you had to piss during a hand or something...

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
I was thinking it was like the 2% chance that you had to piss during a hand or something...

[/ QUOTE ]

That's only accurate if you're single-tabling.

For live play, it's closer to 4%.

[NiR]

i started with 50 buyin. i doubled to 100 withdrew 50 nd played with my profit fter that. i am at 3k now in 4 months about. so just play abc poker. you will win. just get your money in there with AA.