Early on - A9o hand against a complete maniac

[mythrilfox]

Level 1. I have T915 and open to 60 in the CO with A9o. Button (maniac) pushes all-in for 525 (so 465 more). What's your move?

3 hands earlier he ran an all-in bluff with ace high. The past 2 hands he pushed all-in and wasn't called. I am 90% sure I have the best hand here.

[Bigwig]

[ QUOTE ]
Level 1. I have T915 and open to 60 in the CO with A9o. Button (maniac) pushes all-in for 525 (so 465 more). What's your move?

3 hands earlier he ran an all-in bluff with ace high. The past 2 hands he pushed all-in and wasn't called. I am 90% sure I have the best hand here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold preflop.

Additionally, if you're 90% sure that you have the best hand, why ask? It's an easy call.

[mythrilfox]

You could not pry these cards from me preflop.

My being 90% sure I have the best hand is not the only consideration here, you realize.

[Bigwig]

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You could not pry these cards from me preflop.

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That's a problem. A9o in the CO, early in a SNG, isn't sh**.

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My being 90% sure I have the best hand is not the only consideration here, you realize.

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If you're 90% sure you have the best hand, then you assume that you're a 3:2, or 2:1 favorite. This makes it an easy call, even for the cash. If you're passing up these edges at any point in the tourney, save for extreme bubble situations, you're making a mistake.

The thing is--you're not 90% sure. Which is why you don't raise A9o with a complete idiot/maniac behind you this early. Or, you wait to trap him with a hand you're much more sure of.

[mythrilfox]

Why is opening with A9o a problem?

edit: Are you saying in general or just in this situation? You are saying it's an easy call. If you know he will push with a wide range of hands and that your A9o is going to be good 90% of the time, then shouldn't you definitely raise preflop in order to goad him into pushing? Saying that it's a fold preflop but a call on the all-in is inconsistent.

And yes, I am 90% sure. He would push here with J9+ and any suited connector type hand.

[Bigwig]

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Why is opening with A9o a problem?

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It's not horrible, but it's not at all ideal early in a SNG. It has to do with hand value vs. blind structure. You're not trying to win a bunch of small pots here. That's what A9o in the CO early is good for. You get called, then what? You're going to win a small pot, or lose a big one, unless you flop a monster. The payout structure is what's important to remember here.

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edit: Are you saying in general or just in this situation? You are saying it's an easy call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm saying it's an easy call based on your read.

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If you know he will push with a wide range of hands and that your A9o is going to be good 90% of the time, then should you NOT raise preflop in order to goad him into pushing?

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Even against a maniac, I'm not super happy about my A9o with this push. C'mon. You SURE you got him beat?

Here's what happened: You called, he had a worse hand, and he sucked out on you, right?



[ QUOTE ]
And yes, I am 90% sure. He would push here with J9+ and any suited connector type hand.

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That's quite a leap.

[mythrilfox]

When I was starting out, I built my bankroll on the $10+1 sngs. They had a very specific formula you were required to follow. It worked well. My bankroll has now inflated far past the $10+1's, and I do not feel that the same formula can be applied anymore.

What, precisely, is it you have to change? I don't know. I'm experimenting with different things. In the $10+1 guide you are not supposed to open your raising standards until roughly Level 4, so in order to gain an edge it seems as if you should simply open your raising standards earlier. I am by no means an expert, but this raise was an attempt at experimenting with that theory. Saying you couldn't pry them was an exaggeration.

I think if you say that it's a clear call, which is what I was leaning towards when I was actually playing the tournament, then it makes sense to raise. You are raising so he will push. This is perfectly fine. Saying I shouldn't raise here under normal circumstances vs. this circumstance are two completely different situations.

This is not a pity post.

Yes, I am 90% sure I have him beat. He is a maniac, tried and true. But even if I have him beat I am usually a 60/40 favorite and after thinking about it some more I dislike my move. Even if he turned his cards over and showed 23o I don't like it. If I lose this hand with only a 60/40 edge, I am down to 390 in chips. Blinds are going up soon, how can I expect to steal any pots with 390 in chips? I have virtually no folding equity. I feel as if I might be better off folding my 60/40 edge and building my stack up through solid play with smaller risk.

What it boils down to is I feel like if I win this pot, I win only 500 in chips, but if I lose, I lose all 900. Those 390 are like, worthless.

[ReDeYES88]

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What it boils down to is I feel like if I win this pot, I win only 500 in chips, but if I lose, I lose all 900. Those 390 are like, worthless.

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...ignoring everything else that has been said in this post, I think you are making a huge mistake by thinking that t390 in level one is worthless. This is exactly what the maniac in your post is thinking after losing some chips, and the reason why he is pushing a ton of hands. All it takes is one chance to double up in the next +/-20 hands and you are right back where you started. Your stack will be a reasonable size to start stealing.

I've lost count of the times that I've finished ITM after being much shorter than this in level 1. This is a big leak.

[pergesu]

[ QUOTE ]
When I was starting out, I built my bankroll on the $10+1 sngs. They had a very specific formula you were required to follow. It worked well. My bankroll has now inflated far past the $10+1's, and I do not feel that the same formula can be applied anymore.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry for not having any value to add...but would you be willing to give this formula out to a young player wanting to start playing SNGs?

[Al P]

The formula is....

Don't call an all in on an early level with A9o.

[mythrilfox]

pergesu,

It was posted on here awhile back. Sift through AleoMagus's posts for awhile and you should find it. It might even be in archives by now but I'm not sure.



The result is that he had KTo and flopped a king.

I am having a great deal of trouble reconciling 2 important points:

1. Do not risk too much too early. You can build up your stack with solid play at minimal risk. Moreover, I can wait for a better spot against this particular opponent.

2. He is a maniac. He is going to lose all his chips, and very soon. Wouldn't I like to be the one with them?

The question is this: how great of an advantage does 500 chips at this point give you? Will those 500 chips ensure you reach money? Because losing those 500 chips almost assures you won't reach money.

I understand that comebacks can be made, but it is almost level 2 and I'll only have ~12BB left to play with. I can't steal my way to a comeback, I'll have to get lucky and double up somewhere along the way. And with this few chips, I do not dictate when that happens - the bigger stacks do.

[adanthar]

It's really pretty simple. The big danger when you get an A9o and make a conscious decision to go up against a maniac like this is that this time, he has something like two Broadway and you're a flip. You don't want to be in a flip with a maniac; your edge against him, in particular, is much bigger than 55/45. (Also, as you understand, your 500 are worth more to you than his are.)

Moreover, since even maniacs fold sometimes, the other result you don't want is that he folds, the BB calls, the flop comes Axx or 9xx and you lose half your stack.

Your kicker is very important here, which is why this is a much better play with AJo.