Pop a cap in their asses?

[Azhrarn]

The table was loose for 5/10, but this level of action was unusual. CO seemed decent, although my read wasn't real strong. The others ranged from mediocre to fishy.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, Hero...

Cap it or call? If you say cap, would you do it with tens? If you say call, would you cap with queens?

[Harv72b]

Hero calls. I don't like capping with JJ out of position.

[wrto4556]

We have a ton of equity.

[New001]

If you just call, what do you do when an overcard flops?

I'll cap this almost every time, and I'll do it with TT too, unless I'm feeling tricky enough to check/raise a low flop.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
We have a ton of equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe. A lot of potential overcards/underpairs out there, and it's very possible that CO is holding a higher PP (especially if he 3-bet behind such a large field).

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
If you just call, what do you do when an overcard flops?

[/ QUOTE ]

The same thing you do if you cap and an overcard flops--reassess your hand. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[wrto4556]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
We have a ton of equity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe. A lot of potential overcards/underpairs out there, and it's very possible that CO is holding a higher PP (especially if he 3-bet behind such a large field).

[/ QUOTE ]

That's OK. There is a bunch of people padding the pot for us.

[New001]

But you're OOP. Do you check/call a bet from him? He's autobetting almost every flop if he 3-bet, and you have no idea where you are. If you cap and lead into him, he'll let you know whether or not you're ahead.

[private joker]

The fact that there's 6 people in the pot makes this an easy cap.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that there's 6 people in the pot makes this an easy cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where you're losing me. Even if you assume that the cold-callers are all just donks playing the usual cold-calling crap, do you really have an equity advantage with JJ here, given the likelihood that CO is holding an overpair? You'd be a 4:1 dog HU, and when you factor in all the straight/flush/overpair/two pair/trip combinations that you could be up against, I find it difficult to believe that JJ holds a 16.7% pot equity in this scenario.

[New001]

He could also be 3-betting with TT, AKs, AKo, AQs, or random donkey hands. You're going to hit your set enough to almost make it profitable (or maybe even enough), and you're ahead of all but 3 hands.

[fireman664]

AZ, I am with you...call. Your obviously behind somewhere (decent player, and "this level of action was unusual) , and you save a bet if overcards flop (because someone has them), and still get paid if you do hit your set. IMO
(I just dont like JJ OOP..)

[TStoneMBD]

easy cap. i like your topic, im going to use this expression from now on.

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
He could also be 3-betting with TT, AKs, AKo, AQs, or random donkey hands. You're going to hit your set enough to almost make it profitable (or maybe even enough), and you're ahead of all but 3 hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

CO was the only player we were given a read on, and even if it's not a solid one, it's that he seems decent. AK is possible, but I think we're grasping at straws if we start projecting in the possiblity that he's 3-betting here with a lower PP or donk hand.

[wrto4556]

I did a weak pokerstove analysis.

JJ-14.7%
KK-35%
random
random
random
fandom

JJ-26%
AK-23%
random
random
random
random

FWIW

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
I did a weak pokerstove analysis.

JJ-14.7%
KK-35%
random
random
random
fandom

JJ-26%
AK-23%
random
random
random
random

FWIW

[/ QUOTE ]

So assuming that AA &amp; QQ produce similar results, the only time Hero has enough equity to make a cap for value is when CO is 3-betting AK or a lower pocket pair...which is at best going to be 50% of the time. And again, that's assuming purely random hands for the other 4 players.

I just don't see the value in capping it.

[NickRegino]

i say call with JJ and cap with QQ

[wrto4556]

Im not good at this, so correct me if im wrong.

AA-6 combos
KK-6 combos
QQ-6 combos

18 combos beat us given the range of 3-betting hands.

AK-16 combos
TT-6 combos

22 combos we're ahead of and that's being conservative. If AQs 3-bets we almost double the ahead/behind ratio. Does that make up for the 1% equity we miss when we're up against AA-QQ? I don't know (although, I would think so). It's probably so close there's no reason to argue about it. OCD just gets the best of me. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
It's probably so close there's no reason to argue about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

100% agreed on this point. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Jules22]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
It's probably so close there's no reason to argue about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

100% agreed on this point. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

yeah enough with the preflop argument. fwiw i cap preflop there with probable dead money going in the pot

[Azhrarn]

Thanks for all of the responses.

This hand surprised me a bit, because I'm usually pretty comfortable with pre-flop decisions, and I had no idea if a cap here was worthwhile. For what it's worth, I put CO on a JJ-AA, AK range, and I chickened out and called. Having read the responses, I probably should have gone ahead and capped. But what I lack in pre-flop agggression, I make up in flopping g00t:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with J/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP3 calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, Hero calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (19.40 SB) J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP3 folds, <font color="#CC3333">CO 3-bets</font>, Button calls, UTG folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP1 calls, CO calls, Button calls.

Turn: (17.70 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds, CO calls, Button folds.

River: (19.70 BB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, CO calls.

Final Pot: 21.70 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has Js Jh (three of a kind, jacks).
CO has Ah Kc (one pair, aces).
Outcome: Hero wins 21.70 BB. </font>

[HajiShirazu]

I definately think you should cap here. I tried to pick a "sensible" range of hands that people would cold call with when 6 people are seeing the flop (meaning they can't all have good hands.)
Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,915,943 games 62.830 secs 30,494 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 22.7359 % [ 00.22 00.01 ] { JJ }
Hand 2: 26.4673 % [ 00.26 00.01 ] { AA-TT, AKs-AQs, AKo }
Hand 3: 12.8215 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { JJ-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K5s, QJs-Q8s, JTs-J8s, T9s-T7s, 98s-97s, 87s-86s, 76s-75s, 65s-64s, 54s-53s, 43s, AKo-A8o, KQo-K9o, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 4: 12.5125 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { JJ-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K6s, QJs-Q7s, JTs-J7s, T9s-T7s, 98s-96s, 87s-86s, 76s-75s, 65s-64s, 54s-53s, 43s, AKo-A8o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q9o, JTo }
Hand 5: 12.8471 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { TT-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K5s, QJs-Q8s, JTs-J7s, T9s-T7s, 98s-97s, 87s-86s, 76s-75s, 65s-64s, 54s-53s, 43s, AKo-A8o, KQo-K9o, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 6: 12.6156 % [ 00.12 00.01 ] { TT-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K5s, QJs-Q8s, JTs-J8s, T9s-T7s, 98s-96s, 87s-86s, 76s-75s, 65s-64s, 54s-53s, 43s, AKo-A7o, KQo-K9o, QJo-Q9o, JTo }

[Catch of the Day]

[ QUOTE ]
The fact that there's 6 people in the pot makes this an easy cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

[Nick Royale]

I have read this entire thread and believe capping is more profitable than calling.

[Nick Royale]

I like your simulation and think capping good.

[ QUOTE ]
I tried to pick a "sensible" range of hands that people would cold call with when 6 people are seeing the flop (meaning they can't all have good hands.)

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is a bit flawed though. You have put no one of them on reasonable coldcalling hands.