Two Blind Defense Hands

[Argus]

In general this table was pretty tight. I sat down because there was a known 2+2er there and I wanted to watch someone good play. I've been reading Hold'em for Advanced Players and I've being trying to check/raise more flops to push players off marginal holdings. Are these situations appropriate?

Known 2+2er in the CO is the villain in this hand. I know he's a TAG, but I don't think he has much of a read on me. If he does he probably thinks I'm slightly loose and aggressive. UTG is super loose and passive - I've read him for exactly any two cards. I figure villain's raising standards are very loose after UTG limps and no one else gets in, so I think KTo for half price is a good play.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Champion Defender is BB with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Champion Defender calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) A/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/club.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Champion Defender checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">CO bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Champion Defender raises</font>, UTG folds, CO calls.

Turn: (5.16 BB) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Champion Defender bets</font>, CO folds.

Final Pot: 6.16 BB

In this hand villain is another TAN. I haven't been watching his play much, but he seems to know when to fold. Again I think his raising standards might be a little loose when it's folded to him in MP2. I am trying to induce this fold, but am I simpy bluffing with the best hand? Or do I have a chance to fold AQ or a pocket pair?

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Champion Defender is BB with J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Champion Defender calls.

Flop: (4.33 SB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Champion Defender checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Champion Defender raises</font>, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 3.66 BB

[wrto4556]

The first one I don't like. It looks like CO is isolating a loose player. Most isolating hands have KTo beat. I throw it away preflop.

The second hand im still thinking about.

[Harv72b]

I like the preflop call in Hand 1 okay, enough that I'd even consider 3-betting (UTG will call 2, and that gives you better folding equity vs. CO). What I don't like is the postflop play; I think you got lucky with this one. That seems like an easy check/fold on the flop with only a backdoor straight draw.

In hand 2, if he folded immediately to your flop c/r, you were indeed bluffing with the best hand. It's possible that he folded a PP, but I seriously doubt it with this flop. In this case, however, I like the flop c/r a lot more.

[wrto4556]

I agree about the postflop play on hand 1. You have to get CO to fold alot to show a profit (pot's not very big).

I don't get your preflop suggestion. I wouldn't even entertain 3-betting. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get your preflop suggestion. I wouldn't even entertain 3-betting. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd think about it, but only because of the specific reads provided on the opponents. I agree that the TAG CO is going to have a very wide range of raising hands in that situation, and with the virtual certainty that UTG will tag along for the flop &amp; the decent possibility that Hero's KT really is the best hand (or at least has 6 outs), I don't think it's a terrible 3-bet. This is especially true if he believes that both opponents will fold UI postflop.

[wrto4556]

By 3-betting you don't give UTG much of a chance to fold postflop. Calling and check/raising a better flop may be ideal. But why go through so much trouble for a tiny pot?

[Harv72b]

[ QUOTE ]
why go through so much trouble for a tiny pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I only play 2 tables at a time &amp; get bored easily. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Justin A]

The presence of the limper in hand one makes this a fold preflop. This isn't a blind steal, so you shouldn't defend like it is. I don't mind the flop play against opponents who can fold without an ace.

Hand 2 3bet preflop and lead the flop. Given that you just called I like the checkraise on this completely broken flop.

[Argus]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why go through so much trouble for a tiny pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I only play 2 tables at a time &amp; get bored easily. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm only playing one table at a time at 3/6 because I want to work on my game. My goal was to win without showdown. I felt if an ace hit I could fold any hand without one, and that if an ace didn't hit my hand would be looking pretty good and still able to fold out other hands. Basically the gamble is that they fold to this line when they miss - I thought this would represent the strongest made hand without risk of a showdown (which check/raising the turn might lead to).

I thought 3-betting would cause more peeling on the flop and possible showdowns - do you think the fold equity it gives me makes up for this?

[Nate tha' Great]

The play in Hand 1 is going to work a certain percentage of the time, but I don't think it's long-term +EV, especially if he knows that you're a 2+2er and probably wouldn't check-raise if you actually had an ace on this ragged flop. You may have gotten lucky that the 8 fell on the turn.

Hand 2 we actually have something of a similar problem. If you check-raise this against me, I'm not going to be too quick to give you credit for the king there, unless you've established with me that you're actually capable of playing a king this way. If he's LAG enough and you think that he's raising more frequently when you're on your big blind, then 3-betting preflop is a better strategy IMO than check-raising a board that isn't good for your hand.

[Argus]

[ QUOTE ]
The play in Hand 1 is going to work a certain percentage of the time, but I don't think it's long-term +EV, especially if he knows that you're a 2+2er and probably wouldn't check-raise if you actually had an ace on this ragged flop. You may have gotten lucky that the 8 fell on the turn.

Hand 2 we actually have something of a similar problem. If you check-raise this against me, I'm not going to be too quick to give you credit for the king there, unless you've established with me that you're actually capable of playing a king this way. If he's LAG enough and you think that he's raising more frequently when you're on your big blind, then 3-betting preflop is a better strategy IMO than check-raising a board that isn't good for your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the analysis. Do you think it's worth playing kings/aces like this some percentage of the time to give credence to my plays like this, or am I better off betting out to bluff at pots like this? Or should I just give up (especially in Hand 1)?

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The play in Hand 1 is going to work a certain percentage of the time, but I don't think it's long-term +EV, especially if he knows that you're a 2+2er and probably wouldn't check-raise if you actually had an ace on this ragged flop. You may have gotten lucky that the 8 fell on the turn.

Hand 2 we actually have something of a similar problem. If you check-raise this against me, I'm not going to be too quick to give you credit for the king there, unless you've established with me that you're actually capable of playing a king this way. If he's LAG enough and you think that he's raising more frequently when you're on your big blind, then 3-betting preflop is a better strategy IMO than check-raising a board that isn't good for your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the analysis. Do you think it's worth playing kings/aces like this some percentage of the time to give credence to my plays like this, or am I better off be
tting out to bluff at pots like this? Or should I just give up (especially in Hand 1)?

[/ QUOTE ]

My main motivation for fastplaying say kings or aces in this spot is to gain more action from a player who is expecting me to do anything but fastplay kings or aces, either a LAG who doesn't give any credit to aggressive flop play, or occasionally a TAG who expects me to take the check-call, check-call line. Once I've established that I can fastplay, that opens up some more bluffing and semibluffing options later, but that is really a side benefit.

Given the hands in question, I would check-fold both flops.

[cnfuzzd]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why go through so much trouble for a tiny pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because I only play 2 tables at a time &amp; get bored easily. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

this is an ever present danger to low limit players. Not only are our blinds a seemingly insignificant dollar amount, but our pots usually get so large that struggling for one big bet seems pointless. Do me a favor. Open up PT, and check out how much you are lsoing from the blinds. *thats* why you struggle for these small pots, and, in fact, as you move up in limits, you will be forced to play these situations if you want to win.

Oh, and everything nate said is correct.

peace

john nickle