Is A-Rod "Becomming" a Yankee?????

[JoeU]

If anyone isn't watching:

A-Rod is 3-3 with 3 home runs, and 9 RBI.

They are all off of Bartolo Colon, and its only the 4th inning.

Discuss

Joe

[istewart]

Absolutely pwned.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely pwned.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't want to make a thread about it because I know I'd get yelled at. I was hoping someone else would. Thanks.

[Phoenix1010]

Holy crap.

[thatpfunk]

It is sad how far Yankee fans have fallen.

This game is pointless. A-rod will still suck when the game is on the line.

[istewart]

How is it pointless?

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
How is it pointless?

[/ QUOTE ]
i think he meant meaningless

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
How is it pointless?

[/ QUOTE ]

When a 3 homer, 9 RBI game for a player is deemed "pointless", I have no choice but to laugh.

[Voltron87]

His first HR, with 2 on, came when the game was 0-0 in the first. That didn't have any affect on the game. His second was in the 3rd, with 1 on, when the score was 3-2. That one was pointless too.

Grand slam into the black... that is l337 if I ever saw it.

[JoeU]

[ QUOTE ]
It is sad how far Yankee fans have fallen.


[/ QUOTE ]

Please, explaing fallen. Fallen where?

[ QUOTE ]
A-rod will still suck when the game is on the line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, A-Rod sucks? Are you sure of that? How many 3rd basemen hit over 30 home runs last year? How many did it learning their new position? How many "sucky" MVP's have there been in baseball.

Care to fix your post??

Joe

[Non_Comformist]

[ QUOTE ]
It is sad how far Yankee fans have fallen.

This game is pointless. A-rod will still suck when the game is on the line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clearly a hater. Probably a Padres fan or something.

[thatpfunk]

Poor choice of words. Meaningless should have been used for clarity.

You know it is sad/funny when Yankee fans are getting excited over games being played in April.

On the first day of the season was Mark saying "OMG!!! Dmitri Young hit 3 homers. He is finally becoming a true Tiger!!!"

grasping. at. straws.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
You know it is sad/funny when Yankee fans are getting excited over games being played in April.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dude I get excited when spring training rolls around. I follow the offseason moves every day on ESPN. If you think that this is sad then that's fine. We all have our hobbies. Following the Yankees is one of mine.

I only missed watching 3 Yankees games last season. I don't intend to miss more than that this year.

[istewart]

The Yankees aren't doing so well, so any sign of good things to come is welcome. I don't think it's sad or funny.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A-rod will still suck when the game is on the line.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Really, A-Rod sucks? Are you sure of that? How many 3rd basemen hit over 30 home runs last year? How many did it learning their new position? How many "sucky" MVP's have there been in baseball.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wrote a complete sentence. You should work on your reading comprehension.

[ QUOTE ]
Please, explaing fallen. Fallen where?


[/ QUOTE ]

Fallen, as in, it is sad that Yankee fans, once a proud bunch, have resorted to being excited over an early season game.

As in fallen into mediocrity.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
Yankee fans, once a proud bunch, have resorted to being excited over an early season game.

[/ QUOTE ]

So you want us to be fairweather fans?

You can't have it both ways.

[Non_Comformist]

Your hating will not bring us down pfunk.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude I get excited when spring training rolls around. I follow the offseason moves every day on ESPN. If you think that this is sad then that's fine. We all have our hobbies. Following the Yankees is one of mine.

I only missed watching 3 Yankees games last season. I don't intend to miss more than that this year.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dead, you are a smart enough guy to undertand what I am inferring. Look at the title of the OP.

"Is A-Rod becoming a Yankee?!???" Think about what that title is inferring. A statement as such should be reserved for late season and post season heroics, NOT a 3-run homer game in April. That, is what I find sad.

I understand getting excited, you're talking to someone who spent 4 hours watching a draft this weekend.

[Dead]

I think that a 3 homer game anytime is quite impressive. Same as a no hitter, even if it happens in April.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A-rod will still suck when the game is on the line.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Really, A-Rod sucks? Are you sure of that? How many 3rd basemen hit over 30 home runs last year? How many did it learning their new position? How many "sucky" MVP's have there been in baseball.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wrote a complete sentence. You should work on your reading comprehension.


[/ QUOTE ]

haha a little A-rod special sauce in the eyes, maybe??

http://www.southorangevillage.com/discus/messages/49203/49241.jpg

[JoeU]

[ QUOTE ]
I wrote a complete sentence. You should work on your reading comprehension.

[/ QUOTE ]

I merely paraphrased your statement. To suggest "he still sucks" would insinuate that he "currently sucks". My comprehension is fine, its your interpretation of my comprehension that is lacking.

[ QUOTE ]
Fallen, as in, it is sad that Yankee fans, once a proud bunch, have resorted to being excited over an early season game.

As in fallen into mediocrity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did anyone state that Yankee fans have lost their pride or fallen into mediocrity by being excited about an early game.

Maybe you should read my original post again. I was excited that a player who has "struggled" since coming to the Yankees is having a "break out game". As a Yankee fan, that IS something to be excited about, just like when Giambi had his "break out game" by hitting a grand slam in the 14th inning to beat the Twins. If I remember correctly, that game was in May.

Your mistaking "team" excitement for "individual" excitement.

Joe

[thatpfunk]

"A-Rod will still suck when the game is on the line."

Maybe this is easier: A-Rod will continue to perform like the choke-artist he is when the games matter (not in April)."

[JoeU]

[ QUOTE ]
"Is A-Rod becoming a Yankee?!???" Think about what that title is inferring. A statement as such should be reserved for late season and post season heroics, NOT a 3-run homer game in April. That, is what I find sad.

[/ QUOTE ]

My title is suggesting that a player who previously has been considered "not a Yankee" is having one of those "special" games that may turn into legend.

Just think if he hits 1 more home run:

4 home runs in a game

at least 10 RBI in 1 game.

How may times has that happened in BASEBALL history????? Oh yeah, he's also doing it at Yankee Stadium, just another historic baseball site.

Read the frickin title again:

"IS A-ROD BECOMMING A YANKEE?" Not is, not will he become; is he in the process of having a "special" game that you rarely see.

Joe

[Dead]

Add one more single.

A-Rod is 4-4.

3 homers, 9 RBI's, one single.

[JoeU]

[ QUOTE ]
"A-Rod will still suck when the game is on the line."

Maybe this is easier: A-Rod will continue to perform like the choke-artist he is when the games matter (not in April)."

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you meant this, than maybe you should have typed it.

Joe

[JoeU]

[ QUOTE ]
A-Rod is 4-4.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious, does anyone know how many 6-6 or better games there have been? Can anyone link to that info.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I am actually curious.

Joe

[Voltron87]

4-4, 3HR, 10 RBI.

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A-Rod is 4-4.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just curious, does anyone know how many 6-6 or better games there have been? Can anyone link to that info.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, I am actually curious.

Joe

[/ QUOTE ]

Sure can

baseball almanac link (http://www.baseball-almanac.com/feats/6_hits_1_game.shtml)

You'll have to sort through that to find only the 6-6 and filter out the 6-7 ones.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
It is sad how far Yankee fans have fallen.

This game is pointless. A-rod will still suck when the game is on the line.

[/ QUOTE ]its a sick display of offense, enjoy it and don't hate. Whenever Manny goes off, I think its just as cool.

[JoeU]

I found at Elias the most home runs in one game.

[ QUOTE ]
Most Home Runs, Game
4 Bobby Lowe, NL:Bos. May 30 (2g), 1894 (cons)
Ed Delahanty, NL:Phil. July 13, 1896
Chuck Klein, NL:Phil. July 10, 1936 (10 inn)
Gil Hodges, NL:Brk. Aug. 31, 1950
Joe Adcock, NL:Mil. July 31, 1954
Willie Mays, NL:SF Apr. 30, 1961
Mike Schmidt, NL:Phil. Apr. 17, 1976 (cons; 10 inn)
Bob Horner, NL:Atl. July 6, 1986
Mark Whiten, NL:StL. Sept. 7(2g), 1993
Shawn Green, NL:LA May 23, 2002
Lou Gehrig, AL:NY June 3, 1932 (cons)
Pat Seerey, AL:Chi. July 18, 1948 (11 inn)
Rocky Colavito, AL:Clev. June 10, 1959 (cons)
Mike Cameron, AL:Sea. May 2, 2002 (cons)
Carlos Delgado, AL:Tor. Sept. 25, 2003 (cons)

[/ QUOTE ]

Joe

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
Add one more single.

A-Rod is 4-4.

3 homers, 9 RBI's, one single.

[/ QUOTE ]
10rbis
good thing your such a huge fan and on top of everything

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Add one more single.

A-Rod is 4-4.

3 homers, 9 RBI's, one single.

[/ QUOTE ]
10rbis
good thing your such a huge fan and on top of everything

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow you are so smaht. I must not be a true Yankee fan because I forgot to count the last one.

[jason_t]

I never watch the Angels, I only watch the Yankees when they play Boston and I always watch the Dodgers pregame show, but today I am skipping the latter to put on the Angels/Yankees game once I heard A-Rod had hit two in three innings and I've been watching this sick performance since.

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Add one more single.

A-Rod is 4-4.

3 homers, 9 RBI's, one single.

[/ QUOTE ]
10rbis
good thing your such a huge fan and on top of everything

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow you are so smaht. I must not be a true Yankee fan because I forgot to count the last one.

[/ QUOTE ]
you forgot or you missed it?
did your excited rush to get another yankee post up scramble your brain?

[imported_stealthcow]

thats teh funniest thing i've seen all day

stealthcow-

[jason_t]

Watching A-Rod take his likely last at-bat right now. Hope he nails it.

[bort411]

Joe D never tried to slap the ball out of someone's hands after hitting the ball like a girl in a clutch playoff at bat.

Yankee fans make me want to puke. How can anyone outside of New York like this team? Are you that loyal to your favorite players who sold out the franchises that spent 10 years turning them into superstars? For the past decade, they've been killing baseball by buying half of the previous season's all-star teams.

Baseball needs a salary cap. Teams should not be able to buy former MVPs for $15 million a year to sit on their bench (Giambi), or pay players for the simple goal of not allowing another team to have them (Jose Canseco in 2000).

[jason_t]

[ QUOTE ]
Watching A-Rod take his likely last at-bat right now. Hope he nails it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sharp line out to CF. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[sublime]

i think he became a yankee when varitek face smushed him

[JoeU]

[ QUOTE ]
Joe D never tried to slap the ball out of someone's hands after hitting the ball like a girl in a clutch playoff at bat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Given the history behind those two players, what if A-Rod lowered his shoulder and drilled the ever loving piss out of Arroyo, breaking his arm and ending his career? Would you say the same thing? Would you think worse of him? Have you EVER been in that situation? Wouldn't you try to knock the ball out of someones hands so you could reach base safely?

[ QUOTE ]
Yankee fans make me want to puke. How can anyone outside of New York like this team? Are you that loyal to your favorite players who sold out the franchises that spent 10 years turning them into superstars? For the past decade, they've been killing baseball by buying half of the previous season's all-star teams.


[/ QUOTE ]

Like Curt Schilling?, Keith Foulke?, Manny Ramirez? David Ortiz? Besides, they didn't BUY A-Rod, they traded for him. They traded probably the most promising 2nd baseman in baseball. They never gave A-Rod the contract he currently has. In fact, they weren't even the first suitors for A-Rod.

As far as liking the team, haven't they been going out and getting the best player for almost 30 years now? Were Yankee fans bad 30 years ago?

Also, the team isn't entirely constructed of players from "other" teams. Check the roster, I'm pretty sure the captain came up in the system.

[ QUOTE ]
Baseball needs a salary cap. Teams should not be able to buy former MVPs for $15 million a year to sit on their bench (Giambi), or pay players for the simple goal of not allowing another team to have them (Jose Canseco in 2000).

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100% that baseball needs a salary cap. But what's worse: the team that spends $200 million on players because they have it, or the teams that have $200 million but don't spend it? Which is the lesser of the 2 evils?

Joe

[JoeU]

[ QUOTE ]
i think he became a yankee when varitek face smushed him

[/ QUOTE ]

No, its been argued here often that he isn't considered a "Yankee" yet.

By the way, why didn't Varitek take his mask off during that scuffle??? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

Joe

[mmbt0ne]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">En réponse à:</font><hr />
By the way, why didn't Varitek take his mask off during that scuffle??? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Because us Jackets don't want to ruin our faces. Also, he didn't want to catch AIDS.

[sublime]

By the way, why didn't Varitek take his mask off during that scuffle???

that would be a -EV move. just ask cashman about those, he seems to be real good at spotting them.

[JoeU]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, he didn't want to catch AIDS.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he didn't want to catch AIDS, then he really should consider using condoms when getting pounded by Ortiz! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Joe

[bort411]

A two handed girly slap of the opposing team's pitcher in any context will never be an acceptable action in baseball. Never. It's not the move of someone who is purely trying to win; it's a Busch-league move pulled by losers.

Yes, Jeter did come up through the Yankee system. And he's their captain, not that baseball captains really matter. Here's a fun fact: since 1985, no Yankee (nor anyone brought up through their farm system) has won an MVP. In that time, they have brought in 4 (5 if you count the one Sheffield didn't get) players who were MVPs on other teams.

Thier farm system sucks and their coaching isn't anything special. The only advantage the Yankees have over any other team is their market, and it sure does suck that they get to have the best team every year because of that lone factor.

Lastly, if it's between chosing an "evil" that has the 2 highest paid shortstops in baseball and something else, I'll take something else.

[ethan]

[ QUOTE ]
i think he became a yankee when varitek face smushed him

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's my cue to post in this thread.
&lt;-------------------

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
A-rod will still suck when the game is on the line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really, A-Rod sucks? Are you sure of that? How many 3rd basemen hit over 30 home runs last year? How many did it learning their new position? How many "sucky" MVP's have there been in baseball.

Care to fix your post??



[/ QUOTE ]

got it covered for ya.

A-Rod (2001-2004) in close and late situations (per mlb.com) .239 BA

last year he hit .265 w/ the game on the line, by far the best year of his career (in fact, prior to 2001 they get worse, like sub .200 worse)

a 3HR game in April? Please.

This just in: Tuffy Rhodes is becoming a true Cub.

[Jack of Arcades]

Per ESPN.com his three year splits (2002-2005) for "close and late" come out to a .937 OPS, compared to a .967 OPS in other times. His BA drops slightly (to .265. from .288), his OBP gets higher, and his SLG drops but his ISO stays the same. Probably due to facing closers or relievers who take the bat out of his hands.

I can't find the three year splits on MLB.com, but I'm guessing his .240 BA in these situations are more valuable than some player's .280 BA...

[pryor15]

you might be right, based on espn's splits, although they don't go as far back as i'd like. he matches up well with bernie williams' .300 avg in close and late, when you convert it to Rc/g (7.28 vs. 7.16)...then again, those 99-01 numbers were pretty bad, and bernie's pretty old these days...compare him to Pujols (which is fair, i think) and his .317BA, .431OBA, 1.016OPS, and 8.30 Rc/g, and he doesn't do so well.

that being said, it'll take a lot of 3HR, 10RBI games in April, May, and June to make me forget him going 0-4 w/o hitting the ball out of the infield in a game 7. you're getting paid $25M and the best you can do in the biggest game of your life is 4 ground balls? that's the ultimate pressure situation, IMO.

there's no denying a-rod's a stat machine, but so was mo vaughn for a while, and we used to bet on how he'd strike out when the game was on the line.

[IndieMatty]

[ QUOTE ]
Per ESPN.com his three year splits (2002-2005) for "close and late" come out to a .937 OPS, compared to a .967 OPS in other times. His BA drops slightly (to .265. from .288), his OBP gets higher, and his SLG drops but his ISO stays the same. Probably due to facing closers or relievers who take the bat out of his hands.

I can't find the three year splits on MLB.com, but I'm guessing his .240 BA in these situations are more valuable than some player's .280 BA...

[/ QUOTE ]


Dude. You know a lot about baseball.

[thatpfunk]

[ QUOTE ]
that being said, it'll take a lot of 3HR, 10RBI games in April, May, and June to make me forget him going 0-4 w/o hitting the ball out of the infield in a game 7. you're getting paid $25M and the best you can do in the biggest game of your life is 4 ground balls? that's the ultimate pressure situation, IMO.


[/ QUOTE ]

[DougOzzzz]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
How is it pointless?

[/ QUOTE ]

When a 3 homer, 9 RBI game for a player is deemed "pointless", I have no choice but to laugh.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's hardly "pointless", but those 10 RBI's last night would have served the Yankees better had they been spread out over 3 or 4 games. Runs have diminishing value - the first run is very important, the next run a little less so but still very important, and so on... the 9th and 10th runs typically improve your winning percentage very slightly as opposed to the 4th and 5th runs.

Not a knock on A-Rod. I actually like him, compared to other Yankees, and last night's performance was amazing.

[Jack of Arcades]

The thing is, and here's the monumental error with your analysis, the only frame of reference you're giving is to Albert Pujols and Bernie Williams. Maybe you should give the average BA/OBP/SLG for close and late. Maybe you should give A-Rod's rank for each category.

It would seem to me that hitting "close and late" would be inherently harder as late in close games you're probably going against a dominant starter or reliever.

But to say A-Rod hits .241 close and late relaly has no meaning since we haven't established any context - stats are relative to other players in the league. Without that piece of information we don't know how to evaluate the meaning of a statistic.

Anyway, go to espn's sortable stats and you can find, in any given year, good hitters hitting below .200 or with a sub-.700 OPS in over 100 PA. Does that mean they're chokers?

[Jack of Arcades]

Chip Caray: You know, some people are saying that with last night's game, A-Rod has finally become a True Yankee. I'm wondering... what the heck does that mean?
Don Sutton: It means too many people are reading the back pages.

[Pocket Trips]

[ QUOTE ]
Poor choice of words. Meaningless should have been used for clarity.

You know it is sad/funny when Yankee fans are getting excited over games being played in April.

On the first day of the season was Mark saying "OMG!!! Dmitri Young hit 3 homers. He is finally becoming a true Tiger!!!"

grasping. at. straws.

[/ QUOTE ]

gotta love yankee haters /images/graemlins/grin.gif

you bitch because yankee fans are happy they are having a good game for a change but yet this board is FULL of people saying how bad the yankees suck because they are off to a slow start.

Seems like you need to find a way to bitch about the yanks one way or another. It's ok I understand I'd hate the yankees too if I wasn't raised 1/2 an hour from yankee stadium but at least try to be fair about it... if you are gonna say they suck because they are having a bad start after les than a month of play, you can't very well bitch about yankee fans happy A-rod had one good game

[jakethebake]

Does this mean we'll have a whole thread about whether or not he's "clutch" in the near future?

[Soul Daddy]

[ QUOTE ]
Does this mean we'll have a whole thread about whether or not he's "clutch" in the near future?

[/ QUOTE ]
Nah, only true Yankees are worthy that type of discussion.

[Voltron87]

There are a lot of people who think Arod is a choker and always screws up when the game is on the line but also deny Jeter is clutch, saying that doesn't exist. Go figure.

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
The thing is, and here's the monumental error with your analysis, the only frame of reference you're giving is to Albert Pujols and Bernie Williams. Maybe you should give the average BA/OBP/SLG for close and late. Maybe you should give A-Rod's rank for each category.

[/ QUOTE ]

you're right, i was just thinking of a quick frame of reference since it was late and all...i was unable to find league averages, but found league averages for close and late and total stats for 2000-2004...(min 25 PA for close, min 300 PA overall, American League)

overall--close and late
2000
15th BA--158th BA
6th OPS--54th OPS
6th Rc/g--61st Rc/g

2001
7th BA--55th BA
3rd OPS--42nd OPS
4th Rc/g--37th Rc/g

2002
19th BA--94th BA
4th OPS--28th OPS
5th Rc/g--37th Rc/g

2003
20th BA--86th BA
3rd OPS--3rd OPS
4th Rc/g--9th Rc/g

2004
32nd BA--66th BA
18th OPS--64th OPS
16th Rc/g--68th Rc/g

in looking through the close and late situations, the thing that stood out was that i kept seeing the same names above a-rod--edgar martinez, ichiro, nomar, damon, jeter--basically the people you'd suspect to be clutch hitters...but other than 2003 there's a significant drop across the board there in those numbers

[Jack of Arcades]

Why would you expect Ichiro!, Nomar, etc to be "clutch"? And are you talking about them being better in every category across the board, or just BA?

Perhaps they're better equipped to face closers et al because of their high-contact, low-walk style?

[Dead]

Pryor, I'm going to have to ask you to not comment on baseball anymore.

It is clear that you are a typical Sox fan who has no clue about baseball in general.

My apologies for your situation.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
How many 3rd basemen hit over 30 home runs last year?

[/ QUOTE ]

Beltre
Ramirez
Rodriguez
Castilla
Rolen
Blalock
Jose Valentine (if he counts)

6 more hit 25 +

A-Rod &lt; Chipper Jones

[Dead]

[ QUOTE ]
A-Rod &lt; Chipper Jones

[/ QUOTE ]

Dumb comment.

Do you see why?

Jack is a Braves fan, but I think even he would disagree with that one.

[Jack of Arcades]

In what world outside of 2005's 100 PA is Chipper better than A-Rod?

There are roughly 5 top-tier 3B in the league all near each other offensively and defensively. They are:

Rolen
Mora
Beltre
Chavez
A-Rod

None of them really stand out from each other, but they're all top 40 hitters and they're top defenders at their position - why not? Mora and A-Rod are pretty good shortstops, and Rolen/Chavez have multiple gold gloves between them. Beltre's got the misfortune of being in the same league as Rolen, who is absolute nuts with the glove, but Beltre's pretty slick.

[sublime]

a rod is a great player.

this thread is so stupid. really. "becoming a yankee" do any of you actually think this means anything anymore? and yes i am saying it did at one time.

[Dead]

Schilling is on that DL.

Enjoy life without your top two pitchers.

How does it feel to be relying on Wade Miller to save your ball club for the next month?

[sublime]

becoming a yankee

lol

[Dead]

Another homer for A-Rod. That makes 8 on the season.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
A-Rod &lt; Chipper Jones

[/ QUOTE ]

Dumb comment.

Do you see why?

Jack is a Braves fan, but I think even he would disagree with that one.

[/ QUOTE ]

We'll start in 1996 for both of them, because that seems like a nice place to start.

Chipper's OBP/SLG splits from 1996-2004: .408/.545
ARod's OBP/SLG splits from 1996-2004: .381/.582

So, ARod's OPS over the time was .963 vs. Chipper's .953, however OBP is more important than slugging (Jack, can you give me exactly how much please), Chipper becomes better.

Dead, I pwn you.

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you expect Ichiro!, Nomar, etc to be "clutch"? And are you talking about them being better in every category across the board, or just BA?

Perhaps they're better equipped to face closers et al because of their high-contact, low-walk style?

[/ QUOTE ]

they have "clutch" reputations (as does jeter, nomar not so much anymore, but at his peak he did) in the baseball community as guys who will get a hit when the game's on the line (actually, dead, there are very few hitters i'd rather have w/ the game on the line than jeter).

i put that up in response to your earlier question about a league average in close and late. his AL ranking in Batting Average, OPS, and Runs Created per Game (the 3 of which cover pretty much every significant offensive category) drops significantly in close and late situation in comparison to the rest of the league (i.e. he goes from, say, 5th in the AL to 65th), therefore you can assume he regresses more than the average AL player does in pressure situations.

personally, i don't know if it's because he "chokes" or if his hitting style doesn't translate as well to the later innings because he doesn't match up as well against closers or if teams pitch around him or what, but i think it's pretty clear he doesn't maintain his overwhelming offensive superiority (at least not over the last 4 years). it begs the question: is a-rod feasting on inferior pitching and inflating his numbers or is it a variance or what? i don't know, i'm just curious.

fyi: i'm not a rabid sox fan or an a-rod hater. my favorite player growing up: don mattingly.

[tbach24]

this might help you (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Board=exchange&amp;Number=208159 5&amp;Forum=All_Forums&amp;Words=Jeter%20clutch&amp;Searchpage =0&amp;Limit=25&amp;Main=2081595&amp;Search=true&amp;where=sub&amp;Nam e=22205&amp;daterange=1&amp;newerval=1&amp;newertype=m&amp;olderva l=&amp;oldertype=&amp;bodyprev=#Post2081595)


and to respond to myself, I forgot ballpark adjustments (to be honest, i wouldnt know how to use them). jack, will it really make that much of a difference?

[Jack of Arcades]

Huh, you must've forgot the part where A-Rod was a gold glove shortstop and Chipper, well... to put it lightly, wasn't.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
Huh, you must've forgot the part where A-Rod was a gold glove shortstop and Chipper, well... to put it lightly, wasn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

whoops. i meant hitter. i kinda use them interchangebly now. does a-rod really prevent enough runs to make up for the defecit in hitting though? also, what's the number of OBP vs. SLG? I thought it was OBPx3 + SLG for the hitting ratio, but i could be wrong

[Jack of Arcades]

In this particular case, no.

[Dead]

Wait just a minute.

You mean that we should take defense into account when considering who the best player is? My god, that's ridiculous!

Clearly Chipper pwns A-Rod because his OPB was higher over this time span. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[tbach24]

as you can see by jack's last post "in this particular case, no", chipper &gt; arod. or am i misinterpreting you jack?

AND WHAT IS THAT FORMULA!!! it's gonna drive me nuts

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
Wait just a minute.

You mean that we should take defense into account when considering who the best player is? My god, that's ridiculous!

Clearly Chipper pwns A-Rod because his OPB was higher over this time span. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
ok ill bite, whats OPB??

[Dead]

His on percentage base. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Wait just a minute.

You mean that we should take defense into account when considering who the best player is? My god, that's ridiculous!

Clearly Chipper pwns A-Rod because his OPB was higher over this time span. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
ok ill bite, whats OPB??

[/ QUOTE ]

OPB = Dead's mispelling of OBP which = on base percentage

[mostsmooth]

[ QUOTE ]
His on percentage base. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
of course, silly me
/images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Jack of Arcades]

A-Rod is a better hitter even before you take defense into account. You never compare hitters across positions, you compare them relative to a base-line at their position and then whoever's higher above the baseline is better. The base-line is usually average or replacement (about 20% below average).

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
A-Rod is a better hitter even before you take defense into account. You never compare hitters across positions, you compare them relative to a base-line at their position and then whoever's higher above the baseline is better. The base-line is usually average or replacement (about 20% below average).

[/ QUOTE ]

2004 VORP (according to the Baseball Prospectus)

Chipper 32.0
A-Rod 62.3

not even close.

[Jack of Arcades]

1.8OBP+SLG.

It doesn't much matter, A-Rod is clearly far above Chipper once you take position into account - which, yes, makes a huge difference.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
A-Rod is a better hitter even before you take defense into account. You never compare hitters across positions, you compare them relative to a base-line at their position and then whoever's higher above the baseline is better. The base-line is usually average or replacement (about 20% below average).

[/ QUOTE ]

2 things:

1. Is baseline like the average at the position? and the replacement would be a vorp-esque thing?

2. I don't like to disagree with you because you rate to be right, but I think that adjusting a hitter to a position isn't very important. a hitter is a hitter, what position he plays doesn't change the outcome at the plate, does it? or is this a matter of vorp? please explain more because i don't agree, but am not intelligent enough to come up with a legit counter argument.

[Jack of Arcades]

Of course, 2004 was the ultimate down year for chipper. If you compare them in other years it'll be closer. Chipper might even pass A-Rod in a few years, like 1999.

[Dead]

A-Rod is the second greatest shortstop of all time, and one of the best players of all time. He's certainly top 25 if he doesn't crack the top 15. Comparing Chipper to him is ridiculous. Saying that Chipper is better is insulting.

[Jack of Arcades]

Yes, a base-line is normally average or replacement level - replacement level is the theoretical level of offense you'd get from someone readily available in the minors.

As for your second point, adjusting for position is very necessary since 1B/corner OFs that hit for the league average are readily available, but a middle infielder that hits for the league average is very valuable.

Consider it like this: if you had, at every position, someone perfectly average, you'd have, in theory, an .500 team.

If you put Miguel Tejada at shortstop he'd provide less offense than, say, Vlad, but he'd be replacing a guy like David Eckstein rather than a guy like Jermaine Dye.

[Jack of Arcades]

Calm down, A-Rod still doesn't even have 7000 PA yet.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
1.8OBP+SLG.

It doesn't much matter, A-Rod is clearly far above Chipper once you take position into account - which, yes, makes a huge difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you really want to take position into account to ascertain real value, I don't see how you could leave contracts out as well? My point is, Chipper was the better hitter. In my original post I said "Chipper &gt; ARod." This does not necessarily imply total value. We have learnt that ARod is more valuable than Chipper (at least w/o contracts), but is he a better hitter? No.

You know what I think would be fun? Creating the best baseball team possible for &lt;50 million.

Edit- bolded an important word. Note better does not equal more valuable. Just comparing stats w/o ANY vorp or anything like that. tahnks for the help jack. you should be working in baseball

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
If you really want to take position into account to ascertain real value, I don't see how you could leave contracts out as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

you could take VORP or win shares or Runs Created/game and compare that with % of team's overall payroll. i'd think the twins would need to get more value from their $5M than the yankees or red sox.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you really want to take position into account to ascertain real value, I don't see how you could leave contracts out as well?

[/ QUOTE ]

you could take VORP or win shares or Runs Created/game and compare that with % of team's overall payroll. i'd think the twins would need to get more value from their $5M than the yankees or red sox.

[/ QUOTE ]

Win shares...what are they and how do you calculate them?

[Jack of Arcades]

No, because then you'd be judging a player on things outside of their control.

Edit: I'm nowhere near one of the top baseball minds. This is just something I do in my spare time...

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
Of course, 2004 was the ultimate down year for chipper. If you compare them in other years it'll be closer. Chipper might even pass A-Rod in a few years, like 1999.

[/ QUOTE ]

then again, prior to 2004 a-rod was a SS and Chipper was mostly an OF, so the numbers would be skewed. i've got as far back as 2002. a-rod's in the 94-96 range, chipper goes 55 and 75, but as you said, if chipper was a SS, they'd likely be closer, as the replacement OF will do a lot more than the replacement SS

[Jack of Arcades]

Win Shares are an overblown, bloated, complicated, and in many cases, non-sensical stat created by Bill James that tries to incorporate a whole of a player's value.

If you search around, I think you can find spreadsheets to calculate it.

I'm not a fan, but some people swear by it.

[Jack of Arcades]

Chipper was mostly a 3B, not OF.

[tbach24]

[ QUOTE ]
Chipper was mostly a 3B, not OF.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was 3B a dominant position in Chipper's career? It seems to me that all the guys who are now the great 3B's just have sprung up as of late (other than Rolen).

[Jack of Arcades]

3B has never been a high-powered position, and Chipper's one of the better 3Bs of all time. It's usually just slightly above average offensively. There have been times where 3B is less of an offensive position than 2B.

That said, SS is a pretty anemic position. Not nearly as bad as C, but it's pretty bad offensively.

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
Win shares...what are they and how do you calculate them?

[/ QUOTE ]

win shares are a bill james thing that's supposed to determine just how many wins a player "contributes" to his team. i have no idea how they're calculated (it's not listed in the handbook), but i do know that the players on a team's win shares should equal the team's wins*3. using a-rod as an example, his win shares go 30...23...37...37...35...32...30. i think you can assume from that his value to texas is greater than to NY, but that goes w/o saying.

personally, i prefer Runs Created per Game (or per 27 outs), but that's me

[Jack of Arcades]

[quote[i think you can assume from that his value to texas is greater than to NY, but that goes w/o saying.

[/ QUOTE ]

No. A-Rod contributes a greater percentage of the value, true, but that doesn't really matter, as the wins he contributes are the same.

The truth of the matter is, most of the metrics past OPS are more or less equal in value.

[pryor15]

[ QUOTE ]
No. A-Rod contributes a greater percentage of the value, true, but that doesn't really matter, as the wins he contributes are the same.

The truth of the matter is, most of the metrics past OPS are more or less equal in value.

[/ QUOTE ]

that's what i meant, a greater percentage. in texas if he slumps, the offense is in a bit of trouble. in NY, well, there's other people to pick up the slack.

oh, and wasn't chipper primarily an OF for a couple of years?

win shares have always seemed fishy to me anyway, and furthermore they don't help my roto team one bit /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Jack of Arcades]

It doesn't matter whether or not it's a greater percentage, it's still the same contribution.

Chipper played LF primarily for two years