I hate how I played this TT

[DrPublo]

I played this like a fish sometime in my first 2 orbits at the table. I feel like checking the turn essentially gives this pot up to him, but at the same time I can't see betting an underpair here once the top card pairs. Who has a better line?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Hero ($97)
UTG+1 ($157.1)
UTG+2 ($99)
MP1 ($101.5)
MP2 ($100)
MP3 ($125)
CO ($73.65)
Button ($233.97)
SB ($91.8)
BB ($47)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif. MP2 posts a blind of $1. SB posts a blind of $0.5.
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $5</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls $5, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, BB calls $4.

Flop: ($16.50) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $15</font>, MP1 calls $15, BB folds.

Turn: ($46.50) J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, MP1 checks.

River: ($46.50) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $40</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $86.50

All comments welcome

The Doc

[kongo_totte]

Without a read, this looks standard. He might have checked a J on the turn on a nearly draw less board to induce a river bet. Of course, you might have folded the best hand, but I can't see myself ever wanting to invest more on that board.

[Ghazban]

The jack on the turn is not a bad card for you at all. If he had a jack, you were drawing thin regardless. I'd bet it again and fold to a raise then check/call a reasonable bet on the river.

[DrPublo]

[ QUOTE ]
The jack on the turn is not a bad card for you at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. It's a GREAT bluff card for him.

The Doc

[Allinlife]

[ QUOTE ]
I feel like checking the turn essentially gives this pot up to him

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree.. I think checking is a pretty bad option, as he didn't relly show much strength flat calling that flop bet.

how about a 1/2 pot size bet on turn? looks like you are trying to milk him and will win you the pot vs worse hands without surrendering the pot by checking. you can probably check-fold river safely if called.

[RED FACE]

For what hand that called your pot bet on the flop is the J a good bluff card? From his flop call don't you put him on AJ, a set or an overpair(tho an overpair likely reraises you pre)?

[mythrilfox]

I'd have limped preflop. My general rule of thumb is to limp JJ and down but I may raise here occasionally.

I'd have bet less on the flop. Clearly you're not hankering to build too big of a pot here and betting less doesn't give away any information.

I'd have bet the turn again. The chances that you have the best hand are too great. There are also a lot of cards that can come and kill your hand.

I'd probably have looked him up on the river, depending on the player.

[DrPublo]

[ QUOTE ]
For what hand that called your pot bet on the flop is the J a good bluff card? From his flop call don't you put him on AJ, a set or an overpair(tho an overpair likely reraises you pre)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying no jack ever just calls the flop to see what I do on the turn? I'll sometimes do this with one pair hands to see if the bettor will give it up on the turn.

What's more important than me putting him on a J, however, is that he doesn't put ME on a J. Therefore, he knows that unless I have a J (unlikely, as i would have to have exactly JJ or raise AJ UTG), he can take me off most overpairs and UTG raising hands. So I'm paralyzed either way.

The Doc

[Ghazban]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
For what hand that called your pot bet on the flop is the J a good bluff card? From his flop call don't you put him on AJ, a set or an overpair(tho an overpair likely reraises you pre)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you saying no jack ever just calls the flop to see what I do on the turn? I'll sometimes do this with one pair hands to see if the bettor will give it up on the turn.

What's more important than me putting him on a J, however, is that he doesn't put ME on a J. Therefore, he knows that unless I have a J (unlikely, as i would have to have exactly JJ or raise AJ UTG), he can take me off most overpairs and UTG raising hands. So I'm paralyzed either way.

The Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

You're giving him far too much credit, IMO. Also, just because you don't raise AJ UTG doesn't mean that he knows you don't. Lots of donks in these games will. Checking the turn and river gives up the pot (as you know). If you don't want to bet the turn, put out a blocking bet on the river and safely fold to a raise. Honestly, I think you were good here.

[RED FACE]

maybe we're confused...
"Are you saying no jack ever just calls the flop to see what I do on the turn? I'll sometimes do this with one pair hands to see if the bettor will give it up on the turn. "

so if he has a Jack in hand and turns trips how is it a bluff card for him?

Ok, I think I may see what you're saying now. Say he has KK and fears you have AA, with position he can blast you off. Of course this means you're already behind which is why I didn't understand your reference to a "bluff".

"So I'm paralyzed either way." I think the flop call paralizes you unless he's calling with just overcards like AK which imo is very unlikely.

Do you ever call pot bets on the flop with an underpair in position vs a preflop raiser on J high board vs 2 opp's when action goes, check, bet, ??call??

[DrPublo]

Say he has 88-TT, all of which are hands I very well might call a flop bet with on that board to see how the action develops. Unless he can put me on a J, he now has a solid bluff card that will take me off most hands, because I don't know that he won't just call a flop bet with top pair.

The Doc

[RED FACE]

Thanks for your posts. I've considered the possibility that I undervalue pp's in position on the flop with 1 overcard vs a preflop raiser. Howerever, I think in this situation-close to a full pot bet vs 2 when not closing the action I'm still folding my underpairs. Maybe that'll change when I move up from the 50's.

If it were h2h and the bet was closer to 75%(all other factors being as you describe), I think I may raise with my underpair to test him for an overpair instead of just calling but maybe the call is much better due to position-hopefully he gives up on the turn if he missed and I can pick up the pot.

[Ghazban]

Don't get mad or anything, but your posts in this thread seem extremely weak-tight. Are you really so easy to push off a hand?

[TheWorstPlayer]

If you think he's so aggressive, then check/call turn and check/call river. If he is not aggressive, so you should fold to his river bet as you played it, then you shouldn't be worried about him bluff raising you on the turn. You can't have it both ways. Your line is self-contradictory, essentially. You are simply check/folding once the J hits the turn, and that is just too weak, IMO. The J on the turn makes it MORE likely you are ahead, not less.

[nebben]

no way a set is checking behind the turn.

[Siawyn]

I think he put you on missed high cards, and called with his medium pocket pair. Then when you checked the turn he knew he could blow you off the hand on the river.

Lets put it this way.. if you did have a jack, would you check that turn? No, you'd be putting more money in the pot. So bet it. If you get raised, then you can get away from it.

[xcrack999]

In my opinion, you checking the turn means one of two things to Villain. 1) You have overcards and have given up on the pot after your continuation bet got called, or 2) you have a pocket pair, but you are scared of the JJ on the board, so he now knows that he can make a bluff on the river that you cannot call. I would bet 2/3 the pot on the turn and shut down to a call or raise.

[theredpill5]

What does PT say your numbers are for TT ? I can't believe you are playing TT like this in a 10 handed game. Do you think you are making money with TT or not ? You posted this hand for a reason, right ? I play TT pretty much for set value about 70 - 80 % of the time. You are raising $5 with TT ? Not only that, you are playing UTG. There are a lot of hands that beat you and I think it is possible that he did have you beat on the river. He might have rivered a set of 9's.

22, 66, 99, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, any JX beats you.

I limp with TT nearly all of the time unless it shorthanded.

Here is how I play it.

I limp UTG.

I check the flop and see what Villain does.
If it seems safe, I may bet the turn.

[joewatch]

I think your play is absolutely fine. Whether to raise or limp w/TT UTG preflop is a matter of style. Whether to bet the flop vs. board over depends on your read, the board, and also your personal style. In general, most books advocate you bet the flop 75-85% if you raised preflop. This rainbow, uncoordinated board, I think it's a definite bet. Check the turn, check the river, call a small bet. This kind of play is not weak tight. A call on the flop most likely means AJ-QJ, 66, or 22 assuming villain is decent. Checking the flop would probably be considered weak-tight. That turn card is really bad. Betting out is going to be a mistake 99% of the time. Villain's check behind suggests he has a very strong hand.

[theredpill5]

The turn card doesn't change a thing, Joe. It's the same board, basically.

All I'm saying is that I think you played it fine on the turn and river by check folding but I hate how you played it preflop and flop. You are spewing chips with an underpair. I think he had you beat either by a full house or QQ- AA . Either that or he has tremendous balls. If he is that nuts, you'll get your money back pretty soon.

[DrPublo]

More thoughts. If I'm villain, and I call a flop bet, and then the top card--which the aggressor is not likely to have--pairs, I'm betting/raising the turn 100% of the time. The fact that the turn got checked through made me suspicious.

The Doc

[DrPublo]

[ QUOTE ]
your posts in this thread seem extremely weak-tight

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree that it is weak tight to check the turn with an underpair when the top card pairs after your flop bet has been called on a drawless board.

I thought about blocking the river but I wasn't comfortable folding to a raise so I decided to check call a reasonable bet. I'd probably have called up to 20 or so.

The Doc

[DrPublo]

[ QUOTE ]
What does PT say your numbers are for TT ? I can't believe you are playing TT like this in a 10 handed game. Do you think you are making money with TT or not ? You posted this hand for a reason, right ? I play TT pretty much for set value about 70 - 80 % of the time. You are raising $5 with TT ? Not only that, you are playing UTG. There are a lot of hands that beat you and I think it is possible that he did have you beat on the river. He might have rivered a set of 9's.

22, 66, 99, JJ, QQ, KK, AA, any JX beats you.

I limp with TT nearly all of the time unless it shorthanded.

Here is how I play it.

I limp UTG.

I check the flop and see what Villain does.
If it seems safe, I may bet the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

This post is worthless. Redpill: I sincerely appreciate that you have changed your whining ways and now try to constructively contribute to the forum. However, your advice is flat out bad.

The Doc

[DrPublo]

[ QUOTE ]
In my opinion, you checking the turn means one of two things to Villain. 1) You have overcards and have given up on the pot after your continuation bet got called, or 2) you have a pocket pair, but you are scared of the JJ on the board, so he now knows that he can make a bluff on the river that you cannot call. I would bet 2/3 the pot on the turn and shut down to a call or raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree this is a valid line, but if villain is going to bluff the turn anyway on the strength of the paired J I'm essentially giving him money.

The Doc

[FreakDaddy]

I guess no reads since this was only the second orbit. Well, without reads I think I'd check the turn too. It's tough, but on the river I'd definately go for a blocking bet. Throw down $5 and if your raised you can throw the hand away in good conscious. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[DrPublo]

[ QUOTE ]
I guess no reads since this was only the second orbit. Well, without reads I think I'd check the turn too. It's tough, but on the river I'd definately go for a blocking bet. Throw down $5 and if your raised you can throw the hand away in good conscious. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

What? There's $45 in the pot. If I'm going to block, it needs to be for at least $20 or $25.

The Doc

[FreakDaddy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I guess no reads since this was only the second orbit. Well, without reads I think I'd check the turn too. It's tough, but on the river I'd definately go for a blocking bet. Throw down $5 and if your raised you can throw the hand away in good conscious. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

What? There's $45 in the pot. If I'm going to block, it needs to be for at least $20 or $25.

The Doc

[/ QUOTE ]

You'd be suprised at how many small blocking bets work at this level. $5 is just enough for someone to call if they're behind and raise enough to let you know that you're behind. Someone will rarely bluff on the river when a bets already been layed at this level.

[TheWorstPlayer]

[ QUOTE ]
More thoughts. If I'm villain, and I call a flop bet, and then the top card--which the aggressor is not likely to have--pairs, I'm betting/raising the turn 100% of the time. The fact that the turn got checked through made me suspicious.

The Doc

[/ QUOTE ]
You are better/more aggressive than most people at this level. That is why you are a winner and they aren't. This guy is MUCH more likely to have checked the turn because he DOESN'T have a J than because he DOES have one. If I am playing someone aggressive, then my line with TT, as well as with AJ here, would be, bet the flop, check/call turn, check/call river. You are ahead here way more often than you are not. If I am playing someone passive, then my line is bet the flop, check/fold river (since I don't think they will take a shot on the turn with a worse hand, since they are passive), bet the river if they check the turn. I really think you were ahead here way more often than not.

[PinkSteel]

I think OP's line is good from the flop on, but IMO all the postflop decisions become less burdensome if you limp preflop, and play the tens for set value, especially UTG in a full ring.

Then the leading pot bet on the flop (sounds good), and the blocking bet on the river (sounds good), are both substantially cheaper to commit to.

[pho75]

I like your response. I have one question though.

It seems to me that situations like this are some of the most important decisions in NL hold'em. This is the turning point of the entire hand.

Why do you think that a bet is bad 99% of the time? I would think that a bet might be correct more than 1 time in 100.