Frequency of "Making Plays"

[DavidC]

How often should you play your position / your opponents / the action rather than your cards?

--Dave.

[Jazza]

good question, i don't know

hopefully some one who knows will chime in, but i feel the good old 'it depends' comin

[swolfe]

whenever it will win me the pot

[just2ska]

it really does depend... i will typically steal pots from really tight players when i have position on them. Also... if you're playing with a laydown artist they will often fold great hands to you bets... for example

i was playing six handed .25/.50 blinds and raised 1.50 in SB with 10/images/graemlins/spade.gif2/images/graemlins/spade.gif to steal the blinds from my opponent who i know is very weak tight. This time however he called...

Flop is A/images/graemlins/spade.gif 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

check and he bets 1.00 into me...
I c/r him for 2 more on top he thinks for a while and folds
he later tells me he had a7 and thought he was outkicked.

if you end up playing against a player like this i really recommend making lots of moves on them. Most of the time they will fold. If they play back at you then most likely you're beat but this won't happen enough for it to be unprofitable.

just2ska

[Ghazban]

You should consider these factors on every street of every hand.

[mythrilfox]

I think a lot of this depends on your image at the table and the rhythm of the game. If you have been quiet a while you have a far greater chance of succeeding with a bluff than you would have otherwise.

When you play, always look for opportunities to take pots away. ALWAYS pay attention to what opponents may have, whether you're in the hand or not, whether you have trash or not. Say a guy open-limps in LMP, SB completes and you check in BB with 84. Flop comes A35. SB checks, you check, player bets. What is he betting here? Is he really open-limping with an ace? You can probably take it away from him.

Now say the same situation occurs, this time SB is a tricky/aggro player. action goes checkcheckbetraise. There is such a high probability you coming over the top ends it right there that you should try this everytime it occurs. Then you net 2 bets instead of 1.

A lot of problem with these types of players is if people hit nothing they get it into their heads "get out get out fold next hand ASAP." Not only is this poor for your game since you will not be paying ample attention to your opponent's actions, but you may miss out on some very nice opportunities to bluff.

When I mention the rhythm of the game, I mean you can't try to seize EVERY opportunity. People will start calling you down with garbage. If you know a guy bets half pot when he's weak and full when he's strong, and you check and he bets half pot ... let him have it every once in awhile. Don't push too hard. You should constantly be balancing your image as best as possible.

As for the types of players to go after, if a guy folds for 10 orbits straight and raises all of a sudden, there's a chance he could be raising with AJo and you could still take it away from him, but it's probably better to wait for another opportunity. You have to choose your spots very very carefully if you bluff the tight guy. Try to find those players that make continuation bets on nearly every one of their hands. If some semi-weak player opens from the CO and you're on the button you can call very liberally here.

Lastly, don't try it in full ring games very often at all. 6-max you can pull off a lot of nice bluffs.

[Jeebus]

often enough that it is hard to distinguish between my plays and my real bets.

[btetreau]

i'll try to 'make a move' every time that an opponent bets either preflop or on the flop in such a way that i can put them on a range of hands and then the board improves such that it probably does not improve their hand. for example:

i hold 77 in later position than villian who PF raises a little. i call. flop comes A63. villian makes a less-than-over bet and i call. turn comes a 6 or a 3. i'm betting that and betting it hard (without risking more than ~1/2 my stack) every time.

ok, so that was probably unnecessary; in general, i think a play should be attempted when you see a scare card fall on the opponents probable hand.

[RED FACE]

"i hold 77 in later position than villian who PF raises a little. i call. flop comes A63. villian makes a less-than-over bet and i call. turn comes a 6 or a 3. i'm betting that and betting it hard (without risking more than ~1/2 my stack) every time."

Isn't your flop call scarier than the turn 6 if he has the A? It's either a battle of A kickers or you're sp'ing a set.

When the 6 pairs on the turn can your opp reasonably put you on say, 67s? Given your preflop call and flop call isn't a set of 3's then more likely/believable?

[AKQJ10]

[ QUOTE ]
You should consider these factors on every street of every hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Of course, but at risk of stating the obvious you should also consider your cards on every street of every hand. So the OP's question is based something of a flawed premise, unless you take it to be more nuanced.

(Sorry, I just bought Harrington, so in classic contrarian fashion i'm bound by the need to convince the world that your cards really are important, even if Dan lists them 11th of 11 items.) /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[DoomSlice]

Hmm... basically every time that I don't have a draw.

[theredpill5]

AKQJ10,

Did you play some tourneys toward the end of last year on Absolute Poker ? If your name is AKQJ10 on Absolute Poker then I was playing with you in a few tourneys and we talked a bit, funny seeing you here but I had a feeling.

Anyway...

I never make moves. Is that bad ? I don't need to. The players are too dumb.

[vanHelsing]

[ QUOTE ]
I never make moves. Is that bad ? I don't need to. The players are too dumb.


[/ QUOTE ]
As you'll move up, you'll have to, or you'll get eaten alive!

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I never make moves. Is that bad ? I don't need to. The players are too dumb.


[/ QUOTE ]
As you'll move up, you'll have to, or you'll get eaten alive!

[/ QUOTE ]

I had two guys clobber me today with massive plays. Must have cost me maybe a buy and a half in money and two or three buys in earnings. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

--Dave.

[theredpill5]

I'm not sure I'm moving up. I most likely won't. I'm not sure I have what it takes to play 3/6 NL online.

David,

What did you mean they made plays on you that cost you? They bluffed you out of a pot or you made the wrong call ? How can throwing your money around like an idiot be profitable? I assume those of you who are making plays aren't multi-tabling. If I was going to make plays, I'd definitely have to concentrate and pick out which players are capable of folding a good hand.

[theredpill5]

Now that I think about it. I'm not so sure that a decent NL player would get eaten alive at 3/6 NL online without making plays. As long as he makes good reads and understands his opponent, I believe he could make a profit. I made some very good reads today and called a good bluff for a nice profit. I didn't make any plays but called someone trying to make a play on me.

Are we talking bluffs with 35 o or having a flop like 5 9 2 and thinking that your 66 is good and raising with it? I do that occasionally.

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure I'm moving up. I most likely won't. I'm not sure I have what it takes to play 3/6 NL online.

David,

What did you mean they made plays on you that cost you? They bluffed you out of a pot or you made the wrong call ? How can throwing your money around like an idiot be profitable? I assume those of you who are making plays aren't multi-tabling. If I was going to make plays, I'd definitely have to concentrate and pick out which players are capable of folding a good hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Throwing money around isn't good. Making plays is good. Here's two hands where I lost with the hest hand. However, I don't know how well I played them...

---

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP3 ($8.4)
CO ($4.25)
Button ($34.53)
SB ($22.25)
BB ($29.8)
UTG ($22.25)
Hero ($32.22)
UTG+2 ($25.1)
MP1 ($34.95)
MP2 ($50.2)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, UTG+2 calls $1, <font color="#666666">7 folds</font>.

Flop: ($2.35) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises to $4</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $8</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 raises to $12</font>, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $22.35

Villain Shows TT

----

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

SB ($10.6)
BB ($38.97)
UTG ($20.25)
UTG+1 ($26.69)
Hero ($71.95)
MP1 ($30.76)
MP2 ($22.8)
MP3 ($30.2)
CO ($21.8)
Button ($31.35)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+1 calls $0.25, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, <font color="#666666">6 folds</font>, BB calls $0.75, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: ($2.35) K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to $5</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $12</font>, BB calls $32.97 (All-In), Hero folds.

Final Pot: $52.32

Villain shows 97o.

[vanHelsing]

[ QUOTE ]
Now that I think about it. I'm not so sure that a decent NL player would get eaten alive at 3/6 NL online without making plays. As long as he makes good reads and understands his opponent, I believe he could make a profit. I made some very good reads today and called a good bluff for a nice profit. I didn't make any plays but called someone trying to make a play on me.

Are we talking bluffs with 35 o or having a flop like 5 9 2 and thinking that your 66 is good and raising with it? I do that occasionally.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem is, that you get too readable yourself, just playing ABC. Even the live ones at 3/6 get much more sensible to your play.

I am talking about moves, something like calling the flop with your OESD, then betting strong when the 3rd diamond turns. Something like that...
I even have 22/5 players on my buddy list, if I think they are easy to move off hands.

[Popinjay]

playing LAG in low-limit NL where your opponents suck and easily run overable is extremely profitable. i'm probably just running well but here's a screenshot of my stats from 1 tabling nl100 6 max tonight.

http://img247.echo.cx/img247/8136/426stats5ph.jpg

[DavidC]

Example of a "play":

Villain is 53/5.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

BB ($24.75)
UTG ($24.25)
UTG+1 ($27.8)
MP1 ($39.35)
MP2 ($42.94)
MP3 ($40.95)
CO ($14.25)
Hero ($32.85)
SB ($9.4)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif. SB posts a blind of $0.1.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls $0.25, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $1</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls $0.75.

Flop: ($2.35) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 7/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
MP1 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $2</font>...

---

I'm not sure how good this play is either. It's the weirdest play-iest play I made in 700 hands. Most others were knocking people off of overcards with pocket pairs and stuff like what you mentioned. This was an experimental hand.

My plan is to fold to a checkraise unless it's a minraise. If it's a minraise I call and try to hit a six or a spade.

On the turn I might check through, but I would also fire again with an ace, a 9 (against super-advanced players), a 6, or a complete blank.

River I check through if I'm called on the turn.

Edit: add 7's to that list too. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

--Dave.

[DavidC]

Yeah, you might say that's running well (53/100!!) /images/graemlins/smile.gif

But I like the 53o: went to showdown % vs won at sd and win overall. Sweeeeet. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Not something that I'd probably do, but sweeeeet.

[vanHelsing]

Hand 1:
I don' like these small- or minraising wars. I prefer to raise strong, define my hand and go from there.

Hand 2:
Again I'd raise slightly more, but IMHO it looks good.

[vanHelsing]

yes, we can prolly call this "running well" /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Keep on!

BTW: Your screenshot made me trying to resize the PT statistic window and -wow- it worked. That wasn't possible in former versions, was it?

[DavidC]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1:
I don' like these small- or minraising wars. I prefer to raise strong, define my hand and go from there.

Hand 2:
Again I'd raise slightly more, but IMHO it looks good.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I'd made it $12 in hand one, how do I respond to a push... since it's 3:1, roughly, right?

(It was an underraise, not a minraise. /images/graemlins/smile.gif)

I was a little worried by shallow stack sizes putting me into a spot where I would have to call a push, and trying not to give him correct implied odds to chase a set from preflop to flop.

--Dave.

[Popinjay]

oh, another key aspect of "making plays" is having a GOOD read on your opponent. i would not be able to play LAG and do it well multi-tabling. i have to know my opponents in order to make plays.

[vanHelsing]

[ QUOTE ]
If I'd made it $12 in hand one, how do I respond to a push... since it's 3:1, roughly, right?


[/ QUOTE ]
This is a spot where a read would be helpful /images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Seriously, baring reads, I would go for playing the typical player. When I last played NL25, I would have loved to get the money in on this flop. But that was when max. buy-in was 50xBB. I just don't know how it plays today.

But even if you think this will get you in a tough spot, I would still prefer it to the situation, you maneuvered yourself in.
See it like this: If he wants to make a move on you, make him pay real money for it. As it was, he "outplayed" you with minimal investment.
And I guess not many players will move all-in with 2nd pair once you showed them real strength.

[theredpill5]

I had a guy the other day think that he could move me off a hand. He lost his stack. Problem is that I figure out what you are doing. You might move me off a hand once or twice but I figure it out. Last year, you could probably move me off hands all day long but I soon became aware of my table image and I have been improving my winrate ever since.

[theredpill5]

I'll leave the 6 max NL to the daring types. No thanks. Every week has a , "I'm down 8 buy-ins or 800 BB. Am I a bad poker player ? BTW, I play 6 max NL . "

[Popinjay]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll leave the 6 max NL to the daring types. No thanks. Every week has a , "I'm down 8 buy-ins or 800 BB. Am I a bad poker player ? BTW, I play 6 max NL . "

[/ QUOTE ]

you sure you don't wanna play these 6 max games? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

continued my 1 tabling today at nl100 6 max, only played 73 hands but improved my WR a little bit. here are the two day stats:

http://img246.echo.cx/img246/3953/427twodaystats0ky.jpg

[vanHelsing]

I would love to see some hands from this experience.
Aren't there any you wanna share?

[Popinjay]

there are some on my blog (link in my loc) and some more strategy thought kind of. i'll c/p some of the hands

a little background, i was pretty sure this guy had a good hand but i almost always call minraisers just because i am gettin such a good price to see cards:
http://pokerhand.org/index.php?page=view&amp;hand=55936

another one: i think i bet too much on the turn in this hand. opponent was average and it was the first hand i had played with him (i think):
http://pokerhand.org/index.php?page=view&amp;hand=56060

and finally two final hands. these two happened in direct succession against the same opponent. the first one i am sure i played badly (large overbet was realy stupid). the second i raised a little tilted preflop but after that i played it well imo (flop was a bluffcall). anyway these two hands in succession are pretty funny imo, or at least they were for me when they happened:
1) http://pokerhand.org/index.php?page=view&amp;hand=56082
2) http://pokerhand.org/index.php?page=view&amp;hand=56081

here's one from tonight
http://pokerhand.org/index.php?page=view&amp;hand=56552

basically that guy had a $500 stack when i sat and i ended up taking most of it.

[DavidC]

The 53o hand was awesome. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Kinda like a "move of dishonour" when you suck out and then bet like that. Very sweet. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

The PF is pretty crazy, and I'm not sure about the flop and turn, but I think the river is perfectly played.

[vanHelsing]

nice hands, nice blog.

[ QUOTE ]
from the blog: is it sustainable? I dont know,

[/ QUOTE ]

come on popin, I wish it was, but we both know it isn't /images/graemlins/smirk.gif
Playing LAG is prolly the best style for maximizing EV at SH NL, but it's a high variance style as well.

[theredpill5]

It says 600+ hands on the stat. Where do you get 73 hands ? Are you saying you won $1000 in 73 hands of .50/1 NL ? I've tried 6 max NL and I got my ass kicked. That was last year and I don't want to try it again. I might be able to beat it now but I don't know. I don't like the ups and downs. Besides, I'm doing well enough right now that I like where I'm at. I'm not making $1000 in 70 hands but I'm doing well. Also, the minute you sit down and TRY to make a few hundred is when your bankroll takes a huge hit because you start playing like an idiot.

I just sat down at a full game and pretty much folded every hand for the first hour. THen I get AA and raise and I get tons of action and double my $50 on it. I made no moves at the table at all. Why risk anything ?

BTW, did you see Mikael on the WPT making those moves ? He thought they would pay him off once he got his KK but they didn't. It doesn't pay to pull that crap sometimes.

You have a 50 % VPIP ? Ouch. That style just isn't me. I play that style every now and then but I always revert back to the conservative style. If I bet $2 on a flop and end up losing or having to fold, I only see it as money wasted. That is just how I view the game.

[theredpill5]

http://pokerhand.org/index.php?page=view&amp;hand=55936

Drawing to 3 outs. Nice. I see a rant in your near future.

[theredpill5]

http://pokerhand.org/index.php?page=view&amp;hand=56060

This is why I won't play 6 max. Is this a typical hand for you ? You made like $50 with king high ? Is their a method here ? I don't like betting or calling because I THINK I might have him. If it's working for you, go for it. But these hands are nuts. If I saw these hands on my tables, I would basically write something down in your notes, like "... don't bluff him...can't fold AK , AJ , ....maniac....raises with nothing....bluffer...likes to make moves". So then in order to beat me, you'd have to switch to TAG and play for real.

[Popinjay]

[ QUOTE ]
http://pokerhand.org/index.php?page=view&amp;hand=56060

This is why I won't play 6 max. Is this a typical hand for you ? You made like $50 with king high ? Is their a method here ? I don't like betting or calling because I THINK I might have him. If it's working for you, go for it. But these hands are nuts. If I saw these hands on my tables, I would basically write something down in your notes, like "... don't bluff him...can't fold AK , AJ , ....maniac....raises with nothing....bluffer...likes to make moves". So then in order to beat me, you'd have to switch to TAG and play for real.

[/ QUOTE ]

hand read on that one. i was pretty close to folding but hell he limped UTG (probably not an ace) and he is betting on that river stop and go like that? added up to a missed flush draw to me at the time so i went with it.