Against a Straddler

[RacersEdge]

This situation has come up a few times recently - including an entire 8 hour session by 1 player - so I thought I'd post it. But how do you play a straddler from EP and LP? How do you think other players are playing the straddle?

e.g.

You are on button with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif and one player has called the straddle.

[Justin A]

The straddle in effect is a double blind. This means you have a larger blind structure with the same game. Think about what this does for your odds and implied odds of different types of hands.

[Jacob_Gilliam]

Unless you think everyone is so tight that they will fold to a raise (or only one caller), you should fold this.

[RacersEdge]

It is just a double blind, but it's supposed to loosen up the table. So I'm wondering if in this case you could be up against a random hand and a slightly better than random hand. It's not logical to loosen up the table, but does it?

[meep_42]

Raise it up.

You have the button, an ace, and lots of dead money in the pot. The limper is weaksauce, punish them.

-d

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
Raise it up.

You have the button, an ace, and lots of dead money in the pot. The limper is weaksauce, punish them.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

But your hand sucks. Easy fold.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
It is just a double blind, but it's supposed to loosen up the table. So I'm wondering if in this case you could be up against a random hand and a slightly better than random hand. It's not logical to loosen up the table, but does it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Straddles do loosen up the table. This is great because correct strategy actually involves playing tighter, so your opponents are making the opposite adjustment that they should.

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
But your hand sucks. Easy fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Against a limper and a blind hand?
(I'm giving no credit at all to the limper)

-d

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
Straddles do loosen up the table. This is great because correct strategy actually involves playing tighter, so your opponents are making the opposite adjustment that they should.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't TOP state that as blinds/antes get larger you should play looser?

-d

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Straddles do loosen up the table. This is great because correct strategy actually involves playing tighter, so your opponents are making the opposite adjustment that they should.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't TOP state that as blinds/antes get larger you should play looser?

-d

[/ QUOTE ]


I should clarify, the pots will be larger preflop than usual, which strenthens your high card hands and big pairs. However, it weakens your speculative hands. The overall effect is that you'll be playing less hands.

[meep_42]

[ QUOTE ]
This is one person straddling. You do not have to straddle when it gets to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand what this has to do with anything.



[/ QUOTE ]I should clarify, the pots will be larger preflop than usual, which strenthens your high card hands and big pairs. However, it weakens your speculative hands. The overall effect is that you'll be playing less hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's the opposite. High card hands are generally better in smaller pots, whereas speculative hands will be getting odds to chase all the way to the river.

I really like straddles, it makes most casual players play way too tight (like they're facing a genuine UTG raise).

I think A7o is plenty of hand, especially if the straddler re-raises and knocks out the limper (which, with a straddler is not at all uncommon).

-d

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand what this has to do with anything.


[/ QUOTE ]

Nothing, I edited it. I speak nonsense sometimes.

[ QUOTE ]

I think it's the opposite. High card hands are generally better in smaller pots, whereas speculative hands will be getting odds to chase all the way to the river.

I really like straddles, it makes most casual players play way too tight (like they're facing a genuine UTG raise).

I think A7o is plenty of hand, especially if the straddler re-raises and knocks out the limper (which, with a straddler is not at all uncommon).


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes spec hands will have odd to chase to the river, but usually because they made a preflop mistake. We're talking about the preflop decision here, in which case suited connector type hands lose value.

As far as your other two points, I may have to rethink this for a bit. I was thinking it would be just like playing with a rock in the game, in which case it is absolutely correct to play tighter preflop.

[Pokey]

[ QUOTE ]
High card hands are generally better in smaller pots, whereas speculative hands will be getting odds to chase all the way to the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's only true once you're already in the pot. Since the straddle is a blind raise, you have to pay twice as much when your speculative hand is at its least valuabe. The reason we limp with speculative hands is so that we can cheaply evaluate whether they're worth pursuing, knowing that we'll have to dump our hand most of the time, but hoping to make up the lost mileage on those few chances when the flop hits us squarely. By doubling the cost of our hand's "evaluation period" we drastically diminish its overall expected payoff.

While that logic applies to hands like Qxs, I don't think A7o qualifies as a purely speculative hand in this situation. Rather, I think we can play it for high card value alone. Raising this to isolate against the two weak players makes sense to me.

[meep_42]

I don't remember exactly how a rock plays -- refresh my memory?

(And, normal B&M players tend to fold incorrectly in straddle pots. I personally think the payoff of the extra blinds makes it more worthwhile to play marginal hands)

-d

[Justin A]

Ok, still thinking about this one. Here's what I've come up with.

Your open raising standards should be pretty loose if you have a decent chance of isolating the straddler. You're betting 3 to win 3.5, which is better than a typical blind steal. The chances of an outright steal are less, since the straddler should be calling with a lot of hands. However, you'll often end up HU with the straddler, so you want hands that play well in HU situations, which means high cards.

If the players in your game are playing more tightly because of the straddle, then you want to be in there with big cards that play well short handed, and you want to avoid small pairs and suited connectors.

I'm thinking that in more multiway situations, you're going to want to play more high card hands than you normally would in a raised pot, because the threat of domination is so little when it's a straddle instead of a real raise. However, you should play speculative hands as you would in a normal raised pot, and maybe even a little less than that because you can't expect to get paid off as handsomely when you hit your hand.

I'm still on the fence about A7o, but I'm still thinking it's a fold, because you'll almost always end up at least three handed, and A7 just doesn't play well enough in that situation IMO. I'm willing to be convinced otherwised however.

More comments on this appreciated.

[Justin A]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't remember exactly how a rock plays -- refresh my memory?

(And, normal B&M players tend to fold incorrectly in straddle pots. I personally think the payoff of the extra blinds makes it more worthwhile to play marginal hands)

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

The rock is a stack of six chips(in a 3/6 structure game) that is rubberbanded together. Whoever has it has to straddle with it when they are UTG. Whoever wins that pot now has the rock and must straddle when they are UTG. The reason it's correct to play tighter is that the rock has no value, so it's like you're only playing for the money in the blinds, but you have to pay more to do so.

[meep_42]

...since it's frowned upon to win the rock and leave... gotcha. /images/graemlins/smile.gif (ie, you're not actually winning anything extra)

-d